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A vote for sanity!
As someone who does not closely follow or care for the machinations of the TalkBoard, will you forgive my intervention as I try and I explain the perspective which I have of recent events and a perspective which off-line is shared by many new and long term members of Flyertalk.
Firstly let me set out my stall by saying that I have no problem with any of the TalkBoard members, I don't think I have ever had a flame war with any of them and certainly some of them I have a high degree of personal respect for. But the reality is that a high percentage of people on the board (certainly the ones I correspond with privately) find this whole TalkBoard thing an irrelevance and a joke. Let me go further by saying that the correspondence, back-biting and generally poor behaviour we see here and the TalkBoard has generated is an embarresment, which quite frankly as a member of Flyertalk from the very beggining I find appaling. I believe the type of behaviour I see does not represent the views or wishes of the majority of the members of this board. I know many friends in the airline world who read this board for serious reasons, in my opinion all that TalkBoard has acheived is to make Flyertalk look petty and is of detriment to the whole board. However much people try to pretend otherwise Flyertalk is not a community it is a business, and frankly I believe was more successful and representative when the owner of that business - Randy - managed activity without the help of a TalkBoard. I am sure it is with the best intentions, but what we appear to have now is a clique of people who believe they represent a community which in reality does not exist. Elections for President and Vice-President are just the icing on the cake and I hope, without causing offence, are so laughably silly that the any resemblance of dignity the TalkBoard once had is lost. Flyertalk is a business, it is not a democracy, a club or a community. I would respectfully suggest that Flyertalk continue to be managed publically and privately by the persons who are best placed to do that and who have made a success of things so far. That is Randy and his employees. I may not always agree with Randy's actions - as I am sure someone will take great pleasure in posting a link too - but given a choice of Randy or TalkBoard, I have to say Randy gets my vote. Ask the majority of Flyertalkers if they need or want a TalkBoard and the answer I am sure will be no. Ask them if it is relevant to them and the answer will again be no. Ask they feel let-down by some of the posts here recently and the answer is probably yes. On that basis TalkBoard cannot be representative. Disband the thing before it does any more harm. Nick |
Nick,
I read your post w/ interest this morning and wanted to respond. I feel responsible for this whole fiasco, as it was my proposal in March of last year that was at least in part the genesis of TalkBoard. My proposal called for a User Advisory Council, aimed to provide an efficient method for Randy to get feedback and advice from a user perspective about new developments, issues, etc. . it was never the idea that they would be responsible for solving problems beyond the scope of representing the user perspective to Randy. From last March: <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">2. A User Advisory Council (UAC) will be established for the purposes of providing input to FT management regarding feature requests, action requests that fall outside the scope of established policies and procedures, and general user issues as may be directed to them by the general FT user population. The group will meet on a schedule no less than quarterly by most convenient method. Minutes of the UAC meetings will be made available to the community on the FT site after review by FT management. The makeup of this UAC is suggested to be ten members, four of whom are chosen by FT management and six of whom are chosen by popular vote of the active FT participants. The slate of FT participants who have agreed to be considered for an elected UAC position will confirm such in writing or by email to FT management. The term for any individual’s participation in the UAC will be one year. Voting mechanisms and limitations on subsequent terms are to be determined (TBD) items.</font> As to the issue of whether any of the individuals fairly or accurately represent the FT population, my only comments would be that if they are users, they represent a user. And if it was truly important who the individuals are, then those believing it to be important should have either run themselves or conducted a campaign for those they DID want to represent them. Remember there were no standards associated with who could stand for election. So to take the position now that specific members do not deserve to be in their position is really to challenge Randy in his approach. The fact is that 10 members chosen at random could have had the same ability to represent "Joe User" as it was conceived. If there are standards to be associated with these members, that is a fair concept to pitch to Randy for the next round of elections - if there is one. It is not unusual that these Boards/Councils are specifically designed to contain new users, super users, long term users, etc., so as to reach a representative sample of the user population. Whatever. But in this opening round, there were no standards described as a condition for participation. I will add that once on TalkBoard, I absolutely agree that the members should make every effort to adhere to standards of behavior that are above reproach. And Randy has indicated his similar belief. I believe it was Premex (and forgive me if I am attributing this incorrectly) who stated that the egos that drive us all to be elite flyers is probably the biggest obstacle to any hopes for success w/ TalkBoard. At this point I might agree. The entire proposal last year was in response to atmospherics very similar to those that exist now. I assure you my intentions behind the concept were honorable. I strongly support FT and honestly believed this would be a good approach. I have a great deal of respect for many of the former and current TalkBoard members. And I have my own opinions as to why it struggles. Obviously, I have no idea where Randy stands on the issue of TalkBoard viability. Maybe he IS ready to throw in the towel. I probably wouldn't be in his case, but I do think there are many misconceptions about what TalkBoard is and isn't that could be cleared up and that might help to cure both erroneous expectations of TalkBoard and ill-founded resentments of them. I think it needs structure and refinement, but believe it COULD still be valuable. So while they may be seen at this point as less than functional, I would comment that much upheaval has been imposed by the resignations of the appointed members. However, the fact is they can impose no real harm either. If they can't gain their footing and their ability to be functional, Randy will continue to make decisions without their input, just as he always has. So I don't see that they've done any harm. I don't see how the CAN do any harm. But I'll be disappointed if they never do Randy any good, either. Pam |
Thanks Nick and Pam! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Is the current "issue" really the value of the TalkBoard or the value of the TOS? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif The terms of service for participation on FlyerTalk do not allow this type of behavior. From the TOS Rules, Policies and Disclaimers: "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use FlyerTalk to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law." Randy Petersen --- Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd actually thought it was more of the latter, the TOS! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum73/HTML/000336.html |
That is certainly an issue, Doc. But the issue under dicussion on this thread was, I believe, TB. The topic has come up before in various forms on various threads, but I felt this was a good thread to post a reply.
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[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 02-27-2002).] |
Originally posted above by NJDavid:
from dictionary.com ha·rass Pronunciation Key (h-rs, hrs) tr.v. ha·rassed, ha·rass·ing, ha·rass·es 1.To irritate or torment persistently. 2.To wear out; exhaust. 3.To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids. Thank you NJDavid for FINALLY defining exactly what you were/are doing to Doc! Thank you thank you! Dorian [This message has been edited by Dorian (edited 02-27-2002).] |
"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use FlyerTalk to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."
Randy Petersen <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">from dictionary.com ha·rass Pronunciation Key (h-rs, hrs) tr.v. ha·rassed, ha·rass·ing, ha·rass·es 1.To irritate or torment persistently. 2.To wear out; exhaust. 3.To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids. </font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JonNYC: Well, you still got a bit more editing to do-- since Doc made a point of reposting the comments to about half-a-dozen other threads. </font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by fly co to see the yanks: if nothing else, i love the % (percentage) of smiley faces to actual words typed that doc uses. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif (and the spelling of "thanks.") http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif</font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ScottC: Doc, As a friendly pointer, don't you think that the only way to end useless flame wars is to stop posting to them? You know I respect and appreciate you as a member, so please don't take it personal but I think that your replies just add fuel to the fires... After that serious note, have a great day http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif</font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by opus17: doc, just how many threads are you going to post this in? I think I've seen 7 so far. It is quite annoying. [This message has been edited by opus17 (edited 02-24-2002).] </font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Counsellor: Well, the problem is that with doc's ubiquity, they can't "easily be skipped". When you click on a thread that he's posted in, they come up whether one wants them to or not. Broken record time: Can't we puh-leaz have a filter capability? Then those who want to enjoy the doc-fest can continue to do so, while the others won't have to.</font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JonNYC: Say Doc, you're certainly getting an awful lot of "mileage" out of those quotes, wouldn't you say? Then again, at least something about this cat-flight is mileage-related.</font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by FewMiles: Your post on this thread is not on-topic with the original post. You should start your own thread (one only please) and then we can keep all discussion consolidated. Thank you, please drive through. FewMiles.. </font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TrojanHorse: I'm with you Lisa; I can't believe there are two threads on this plus one in omni and all of them are going in full force. I guess I'm contributing to this mess but hey someone needs to say that the ones complaining are as bad as the original problem </font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by FewMiles: doc, do you not see the irony in the nature of this post of yours? FewMiles..</font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by gamble0813: Yes I am, but not to the same extent as reading a 2 page long thread just to realize at the end that it is a year old and I just wasted my time. Would it not be less work to just create a new topic? Why spend hours for a year old one just to drag it back for a fishing expedition? Again, no flame intended and I do not want to go back and forth on this. But now that I have finished the above, I can't resist asking why you insist on doing what you do? Can't you just take a month off and give the rest of us a breather? Or at least confine your news posts to the In The News forum? Just a suggestion. ..</font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by blairvanhorn: You guys obviously have some differences. But what does your post, Doc, offering NJDavid "possible aid" at the Center For Mental Health Services (U.S. Department of and Human Services) web site, and more specifically at their web site for the state New Jersey, have the least bit to do with your supposed desires to "move past the 'baloney'" and advising us "Let's ALL move on!" ? From the "About CMHS" link on the first page of the web site you so "helpfully" provided: CMHS is charged with leading the national system that delivers mental health services. goal of this system is to provide the treatment and support services needed by adults with mental disorders and children with serious emotional problems. Almost 50 adults in the United States are affected by mental illness in any given year, and more than 5 million adults and children are diagnosed each with a severe mental illness, such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or severe depression. What are you trying to say here, Doc? How is this not a personal attack on another FTer? How is this "moving past the baloney" and "moving on"? I don't get it. And, quite honestly, I don't care for it: as you can read from the above quote from CMHS web site, millions of American adults and children are affected by mental illness in a given year, and more than 5 million are diagnosed with a severe mental illness. This is a very serious problem for our society in general, and one that has affected people close to me whom I care very much about. Your use of serious sites such as these to further your personal attacks on someone (or was this a "joke"?) is undignified, unbecoming and unbelievable. IMHO. ..</font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> Originally posted by Law Lord: Doc, I think I've run across six places (so far) where you've reposted the remarks of essxjay. Why not just once, in the thread itself, plus an e-mail to Mr. Petersen? If we can't collectively stamp out flame wars, let's at least hold them to one thread per war.</font> [This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 02-27-2002).] |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by NJDavid: "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use FlyerTalk to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law." Randy Petersen [This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 02-27-2002).]</font> PLEASE READ, THANKS! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif --- From the good ol' days: "Folks, we have something rare and good going on here. Let's try and keep it that way." -dgolds http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum73/HTML/000338.html |
NJDavid, from someone who has absolutely no prior experience with you, good or bad, please either(1) stop your incessant whining or (2) go away. There are at least some (and IMO, many) FTers who believe that doc is an asset to the board. As far as I can see, at least recently, you add nothing of value and, in fact, detract greatly from everyone's enjoyment of FT.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cactuspete: NJDavid, from someone who has absolutely no prior experience with you, good or bad, please either(1) stop your incessant whining or (2) go away. There are at least some (and IMO, many) FTers who believe that doc is an asset to the board. As far as I can see, at least recently, you add nothing of value and, in fact, detract greatly from everyone's enjoyment of FT.</font> But, as I am me, I'll simply point out that other than this single post right here, none of the words in this thread are mine. They all come from other Flyertalkers, Randy and the dictionary. Sorry if the truth offends you. |
cactuspete, you speak for me.
Dorian |
I would ask you both to quit tromping over every thread in which you can remotely continue this ridiculous "I'll be the last one standing" battle.. This thread had a particular topic - which is now lost of course. Are you not capable of stopping??? Surely you realize - or do you? - that there is no point at which the other will default? There is no argument either of you can propose which the other will find credible. So who are you talking to? Us? Have you not gotten the message we're sick of it all? We're all trying to escape this. We're trying to talk about other things. Please, please, please just stop !!
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by NJDavid: If I were...well let's just say someone else, I would quote your message above in every thread you posted in in the last few days, then start a new thread in multiple forums with the same quote asking for your "attack to be dealt with. Your one message above would now appear about 20 times in as many different threads. And if you happen to reply, whoo-boy, think of the exponential possibilities of that second post. But, as I am me, I'll simply point out that other than this single post right here, none of the words in this thread are mine. They all come from other Flyertalkers, Randy and the dictionary. Sorry if the truth offends you. </font> As far as "the truth," there was a very recent 3- or 4-page thread wherein about 95% of the posters were in support of doc's postings (sorry, I don't have the time or inclination to find it, but I'm sure that you know which one I am referring to). And IIRC there have been similar threads over the past few years. "The truth" is that Randy apparently is not going to suspend essxjay, doc, goldlust, Cigarman or you, no matter how much you, me, Dorian or anybody else wants him to, so how about taking one for the team and posting something productive. I have been in my fair share of pissing matches here (and along the way received some unsolicited advice from Randy and fellow FTers), but I sure don't let it consume me. Yes, you can probably spend all afternoon and evening digging up quotes about me, just as you have done with doc. Don't bother. Address the issue at hand. Get over it. Move on. Please. |
I'll vote for sanity.
And folks - do we want to close this forum too? |
Following Beecham's Rule (explanation by e-mail to any curious trivia hound), let's ask Mr. Petersen to close down all the forums -- then we'll really stop the flame wars!
The last I heard, flame needed two ingredients, fuel and oxygen. Similarly, flame wars need two participants. As I see it, the first one to back down wins -- because s/he put out the fire. |
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