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Voting Ended / Motion Passed: Creation of a Smoking Section

Voting Ended / Motion Passed: Creation of a Smoking Section

 
Old Jul 2, 2015, 7:13 am
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Dovster
Originally Posted by Absolutely Nobody

It was a beautiful spring evening in New York and I had a three hour connection on my way to Las Vegas, so I went outside to light up a smoke.

A moment later, a gorgeous blonde walked up to me, took out a cigarette, and asked me if I could give her a light. As a true gentleman would, I took out my solid gold Dunhill lighter and held it up to her cigarette. Our hands touched and it was a magic, electric, moment between the two of us.

"I always like meeting fellow smokers," she said to me, "especially men. Any real man I have ever met smoked."

After a few minutes of chatting she mentioned that she was taking the same flight to LAS that I was. We walked back inside the terminal and went to the check in counter. I told the agent that I was flying in First Class and the lady was going in Economy. I asked if we could switch seats.

"Don't be silly," the agent replied. "I was standing near you having my own cigarette and saw the two of you smoking. I always upgrade smokers to FC, and there is no problem to put the two of you next to each other."

When we arrived at the Bellagio, we asked to have our separate reservations merged into one and get a suite instead of two separate rooms. That was done immediately and the hotel even gave us a luxury suite for the same price as one small room.

We spent the week together and when we returned to New York she went home and I had to connect to my flight to Tel Aviv. I went outside for a smoke and, a moment later, a gorgeous Israeli brunette walked up to me, took out a cigarette, and asked me if I could give her a light...
Dovster, we may need a Travel Fantasies forum just for posts like this.
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 7:37 am
  #137  
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Originally Posted by kokonutz
Many get proposed. Fewer get voted on. Fewer still get rejected.
However, in the past, most of the suggested new fora were stopped dead in their tracks by the TB "criteria" for new forum creation. The ones that succeeded did have the numbers/evidence to support the idea and the evidence was provided, often by one or more of the supporters doing work to show the numbers.

More recently we've created several new fora just because some people think it's somehow obvious or some TB members believe that the new forum is needed or will work. Requests for the data or other evidence are ignored or worse when certain TB members want to proceed immediately regardless of the usual standards.
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 7:47 am
  #138  
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Originally Posted by Dovster
I have been a smoker for the past 53 years and I can't think of a single way that it is beneficial. As somedude3210 said, discussing whether smoking is good or bad for you is not the purpose of this proposed forum. In fact, I think that whoever moderates it should remove any posts which take either viewpoint.

Go to Omni if you want to discuss the pros or cons of smoking. (I would be interested in finding any pros which might exist.)

When I first raised this issue, I said that the entire purpose of the forum is to help smokers find travel facilities (hotels, airports, car rental agencies, restaurants, etc) where they will be allowed to smoke.

These will be constantly changing. A couple of years ago I could not smoke in MXP -- today, I can. On the other hand, there used to be two HHonors hotels in the Atlanta airport area where smoking was allowed. Today there are none.

Non-smokers are probably not aware of where smoking is or is not allowed -- at least not to the degree that smokers are. A forum providing such information, and threads about particular locations being updated as the situation changes, would be very helpful to smokers -- and certainly will not take anything away from non-smokers.
From the beginning, I saw potential for nonsmokers to benefit from the proposed new forum by being able to see where the antismoking regulations aren't enforced and where hotels, restaurants, outdoor cafes and places for outdoor public events, etc. might surprisingly not be totally nonsmoking.

Just as smokers want and need to find places that permit smoking, people who are especially sensitive to smoke need and want to find places that were not proviously occupied by smokers and where there are not going to be smokers nearby.

If such information were also available and discussed from this perspective, the proposed new forum could be very valuable to even more FT members. Otherwise I fear that we'll also need a Nonsmoking Section if the scope of the Smoking Section cannot be defined in a way that nonsmokers are also welcome to come here to gather information about where there might be surreptitious smoking or smoking nearby. Of course, in any event, discussions about whether people should smoke would need to be strongly forbidden.
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 8:22 am
  #139  
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Originally Posted by dhammer53
So now we're encouraging people to smoke?

I oppose creating this new forum.
Not at all-it's simply a centralized place for those who smoke to discuss where they can/cannot smoke while traveling
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 8:30 am
  #140  
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Originally Posted by tom911
Have you been to many travel sites with dedicated smoking forums, though? I can't think of any I've been to and this topic is entirely new to FT. When 480,000 Americans die a year from smoking related health issues, and 9 out of 10 smokers have their first smoking experience before 18, FT needs to send a clear message to teens that smoking kills. I don't care about those that have been smoking for 30-40 years but specifically about teens. Let's be clear: I also support the creation of a smokers forums with a warning. If we treat the smoking forum the same as an airline or hotel forum, it sends the message that everything is just fine with smoking and we're not concerned. We all should be concerned about teen smokers.

I would hope that Internet Brands takes the socially responsible position of placing a warning on the forum directed at teens who are considering smoking, warning them of the serious health consequences, if the Talk Board doesn't. We don't need a similar warning on the AA or Marriott forums because those topics don't result in 480,000 American deaths a year.
Socially responsible or in loco parentis?

Originally Posted by bdschobel
First of all, how many teenagers are the kind of frequent flyers who would use FlyerTalk? Probably not very many.

Secondly, I will merely observe that nobody posting here has ever suggested that he or she might take up smoking if FlyerTalk creates a smokers' forum. No, it's never one of us. We're too smart for that! It's always some other guy -- someone so gullible or easily influenced that the existence of a smokers' forum here might push him over the edge into smoker-land. Do such people actually exist? Or are we worried about fantasy creatures like unicorns?

Sure, some people smoke. Smoking is a serious health risk, beyond debate. But what does FlyerTalk have to do with that? Doesn't FlyerTalk simply exist in a world with smokers, neither creating nor encouraging them? And is FlyerTalk responsible in any way for discouraging smoking? I don't think so. Smokers get plenty of discouragement already from other sources.

Bruce
It's not a matter or being smart or not smart. Smart people smoke too, including some who participate on FT. Some smart people have started smoking as teens, some later in life, and for verious reasons they continue to smoke.

Yes, statistical studies show that smoking is highly correlated with socioeconomic status, including education and IQ, but this doesn't mean that no smart person starts smoking or continues to smoke (regardless of age).

Originally Posted by Calchas
This is FlyerTalk, not NHS Direct.

No one reads warnings, least of all teenagers!


The emerging thread of this discussion ("why smoking is bad—you guys probably haven't heard the news yet, so let me explain it to you") is probably the best argument against the smokers' forum proposal. It will be a magnet for this kind of invective. In my view, at least.
FT shouldn't step into the nanny role that governments already assume.

Originally Posted by goalie
Not at all-it's simply a centralized place for those who smoke to discuss where they can/cannot smoke while traveling
Why can't those who do not smoke also come to the proposed new forum "to discuss where they can/cannot smoke while traveling"? Would admission require that one certify that one is already a smoker? Would there be restrictions along the lines of how many days and how many cigaretts before gaining access to the forum?
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 9:12 am
  #141  
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Oppose.
Discussions regarding where people can smoke can be handled in the hotel/destination/rental car forums.
Are we going to add forums for every personal vice? if you want a forum for smokers, why aren't you also asking for a "places in <city> where I can drink tequila" forum? There's as much need for a separate, non-location-specific tequila forum as there is for a non-location-specific smoking forum.
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 9:26 am
  #142  
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I would like to remind everyone that the purpose of TalkBoard is to submit recommendations based on the input of FlyerTalk members, whom we represent.

  • We do not have the power to create or close forums.
  • We are not employees of Internet Brands.
  • We have no control over any community directors of FlyerTalk.
  • We are not attorneys who are versed on legal issues.
  • We are not experts on information technology.

We simply submit recommendations. The powers of members of TalkBoard are not exactly all-encompassing and absolute. We are not out to create forums just for the sake of creating forums. As far as I am concerned, if a forum serves a need, it should exist. If a need for FlyerTalk members is not being served, they are then voted to be closed, as has happened to four separate forums recently.

Speaking for myself, I attempt to parse the input of fellow members of FlyerTalk to find out what can be done to improve FlyerTalk. I then communicate with other members of TalkBoard to find out what they think. Sometimes I agree with them. Sometimes I do not agree with them.

If a motion to vote comes to fruition and I am convinced one way or another, I vote in a manner in which I believe is best for the membership of FlyerTalk.

In this particular case, I have voted in favor of the creation of the proposed forum for smokers — despite the fact that I am vehemently against the entire concept of smoking and believe it should be abolished. I have lost family members to lung cancer. I seem to be the person to whom smokers inexplicably like to congregate adjacent despite having acres of room to go elsewhere; and I can drone on all day about how my right to breathe clean air is being breached.

Why, then, did I vote for this motion to pass? Because in my opinion, the FlyerTalk members who have weighed in on the proposed forum have demonstrated to me that there is a need for it.

I have met many FlyerTalk members over the years; and I cannot believe how many of them smoke. It is a disgusting and dangerous habit which I wish I could just wave a magic wand and have it disappear altogether for everyone; but for me to proselytize my adamant beliefs into a vote would be a significant disservice to the FlyerTalk members whom I serve.

To reiterate, the purpose of the proposed forum is not to glamorize or promote smoking of any substance — just as existing special interest forums do not promote a same-sex lifestyle or having a pet. It is simply to assist those FlyerTalk members who smoke to be able to travel — even if just a little bit easier...

...and I know first-hand that Internet Brands has a legal department. If the attorneys in the legal department deem it necessary to add an anti-smoking disclaimer to the proposed forum should the motion be passed, so be it. I am neither for or against that happening...
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 9:41 am
  #143  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
...It's not a matter or being smart or not smart. Smart people smoke too, including some who participate on FT. Some smart people have started smoking as teens, some later in life, and for verious reasons they continue to smoke.

Yes, statistical studies show that smoking is highly correlated with socioeconomic status, including education and IQ, but this doesn't mean that no smart person starts smoking or continues to smoke (regardless of age).

FT shouldn't step into the nanny role that governments already assume.

Why can't those who do not smoke also come to the proposed new forum "to discuss where they can/cannot smoke while traveling"? Would admission require that one certify that one is already a smoker? Would there be restrictions along the lines of how many days and how many cigarettes before gaining access to the forum?
You misunderstood my point -- or read my post too literally. I was simply pointing out that some people wail endlessly about how FlyerTalk might somehow encourage a stranger to start smoking, but it's never a real person. It's some gullible, easily led fantasy person -- a unicorn, if effect. If such people don't actually exist, then maybe we can stop worrying about them.

You're certainly right that FlyerTalk "shouldn't step into the nanny role that governments already assume." I couldn't agree more. How many people need to lecture smokers? Aren't there enough already?

Finally, it should be obvious -- and maybe that's your point -- that nonsmokers can visit the smokers' forum, too. Just as we cannot, as a practical matter, impose an age screen, we also cannot impose a smoking screen. FlyerTalk has no way to distinguish smokers from nonsmokers, and I hope it stays that way!

Bruce
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 9:43 am
  #144  
 
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Originally Posted by Dovster
That post would be glamorizing smoking and while it might fit on Omni, it certainly would not meet the requirements of a Smoking Forum. Of course, I have never heard of such a thing happening in real life -- certainly, and unfortunately, not to me. For all of that, if someone does make such a post on the Smoking Forum I promise to RBP it as being off topic for the forum.

On the other hand, what did happen to me in real life would fit perfectly on the forum. Last year, I stayed at the ATL Hilton and called them in October to ask to have the same corner room reserved for my award stay in January. I was told that the hotel no longer allows smoking.

I then made an award reservation on line for a smoking room at the ATL Embassy Suites. It was confirmed but a few days before my arrival I called the ES to ask if I could get early check in and was told that renovations had been completed sooner than expected and it is now smoke-free.

After careful search, the only ATL hotel I could find which both allowed smoking and had a courtesy bus from the airport was a Microtel which was in very bad shape and, of course, I could not use my HHonors points there. I had to pay cash.

The post would be on topic for a Smokers Forum as it:

1. Lets smokers know that neither the Hilton nor the ES allow smoking any longer.

2. They can stay at the Microtel.

3. It is always a good idea to confirm before arrival that your hotel hasn't changed its policy.

Does my real life experience seem glamorous to you in any way?
The point isn't whether your individual struggles as a smoker are subjectively (or even objectively) glamorous. The fact is that traveling itself is what is glamorous (yes, even when you suffer the indignity of being in a cramped seat next to a sweaty person for 6 hours, or find a hair in your bathtub, or have to walk half a mile to find a smoking lounge), and the people who have the means to do so are part of an influential class. Any exposure that normalizes smoking is detrimental to teens, and if we can avoid or at least reduce that exposure with a warning label and over-18 login, why on earth not?

I know you are going to point out that there is no way to prevent a minor from lying about their age and that is true, but there's a big difference between a nightclub that invites underage kids to drink and one that checks IDs but lets a fake slip by here and there.

Last edited by valedecem; Jul 2, 2015 at 9:51 am
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 10:24 am
  #145  
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Originally Posted by Canarsie
I would like to remind everyone that the purpose of TalkBoard is to submit recommendations based on the input of FlyerTalk members, whom we represent.

  • We do not have the power to create or close forums.
  • We are not employees of Internet Brands.
  • We have no control over any community directors of FlyerTalk.
  • We are not attorneys who are versed on legal issues.
  • We are not experts on information technology.

We simply submit recommendations. The powers of members of TalkBoard are not exactly all-encompassing and absolute. We are not out to create forums just for the sake of creating forums. As far as I am concerned, if a forum serves a need, it should exist. If a need for FlyerTalk members is not being served, they are then voted to be closed, as has happened to four separate forums recently.

Speaking for myself, I attempt to parse the input of fellow members of FlyerTalk to find out what can be done to improve FlyerTalk. I then communicate with other members of TalkBoard to find out what they think. Sometimes I agree with them. Sometimes I do not agree with them.

If a motion to vote comes to fruition and I am convinced one way or another, I vote in a manner in which I believe is best for the membership of FlyerTalk.

In this particular case, I have voted in favor of the creation of the proposed forum for smokers despite the fact that I am vehemently against the entire concept of smoking and believe it should be abolished. I have lost family members to lung cancer. I seem to be the person to whom smokers inexplicably like to congregate adjacent despite having acres of room to go elsewhere; and I can drone on all day about how my right to breathe clean air is being breached.

Why, then, did I vote for this motion to pass? Because in my opinion, the FlyerTalk members who have weighed in on the proposed forum have demonstrated to me that there is a need for it.

I have met many FlyerTalk members over the years; and I cannot believe how many of them smoke. It is a disgusting and dangerous habit which I wish I could just wave a magic wand and have it disappear altogether for everyone; but for me to proselytize my adamant beliefs into a vote would be a significant disservice to the FlyerTalk members whom I serve.

To reiterate, the purpose of the proposed forum is not to glamorize or promote smoking of any substance just as existing special interest forums do not promote a same-sex lifestyle or having a pet. It is simply to assist those FlyerTalk members who smoke to be able to travel even if just a little bit easier...

...and I know first-hand that Internet Brands has a legal department. If the attorneys in the legal department deem it necessary to add an anti-smoking disclaimer to the proposed forum should the motion be passed, so be it. I am neither for or against that happening...
Well said.

Cheers.
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 10:40 am
  #146  
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Originally Posted by valedecem
...Any exposure that normalizes smoking is detrimental to teens, and if we can avoid or at least reduce that exposure with a warning label and over-18 login, why on earth not?
As I said before, this is the Internet. We simply have no way of knowing how old anyone is. And trying to discover people's ages in order to screen readers is a fool's errand. Anyone who wants to read the smokers' forum is going to succeed. Just accept that fact.

Bruce
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 10:52 am
  #147  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
Originally Posted by goalie
Not at all-it's simply a centralized place for those who smoke to discuss where they can/cannot smoke while traveling
Why can't those who do not smoke also come to the proposed new forum "to discuss where they can/cannot smoke while traveling"? Would admission require that one certify that one is already a smoker? Would there be restrictions along the lines of how many days and how many cigaretts before gaining access to the forum?
Of course they can . I was just trying to diffuse the argument that this not a discussion about the merits/lack of merits about smoking but rather a discussion about creating a "smoking section" on Flyertalk
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 11:28 am
  #148  
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 12:14 pm
  #149  
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Originally Posted by Canarsie
If the attorneys in the legal department deem it necessary to add an anti-smoking disclaimer to the proposed forum should the motion be passed, so be it. I am neither for or against that happening...
I hope not just the lawyers, but management and employees of Internet Brands would want that warning directed at teen smokers and potential teen smoke to show they care about this major health issue that causes 6 million deaths a year around the world . They're the most vulnerable group in that 9 of 10 smokers try their first cigarette before age 18.

Originally Posted by bdschobel
First of all, how many teenagers are the kind of frequent flyers who would use FlyerTalk? Probably not very many.
Each day 3,800 American teens under 18 try their first cigarette (1.4 million a year), and some of those teens during the course of a year will likely be among the 500,000 members of FlyerTalk (even a larger group with those that never register - could it be a million or more?). By having a forum discussing where you can smoke, those teens will think smoking is just fine because frequent flyers take airplanes, stay at hotels, rent cars, do manufactured spend, apply for credit cards, and also smoke and have a forum to discuss where they can smoke in airports and hotels. Just another day at FT. It shouldn't be. One line of text in the forum description will provide a minimum warning that FT does not find teen smoking acceptable.

None of us should feel fine about teen smoking. Would any of us encourage a teen child or relative to take up smoking with the known health risks? Would you send them over to a smokers forum to check out where they can smoke when traveling? Just one line of text is all I want. If the Talk Board doesn't want to provide that, I hope Internet Brands has a different point of view.

Originally Posted by bdschobel
Sure, some people smoke.
It's a lot more than "some". 1.4 million American teens try their first cigarette each year. There are 480,000 American smoking related deaths each year, and over 6 million a year world wide.

From the CDC:

More than 10 times as many U.S. citizens have died prematurely from cigarette smoking than have died in all the wars fought by the United States during its history.
Smoking causes about 90% (or 9 out of 10) of all lung cancer deaths in men and women. More women die from lung cancer each year than from breast cancer.
About 80% (or 8 out of 10) of all deaths from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) are caused by smoking.
Originally Posted by bdschobel
How many people need to lecture smokers? Aren't there enough already?
In terms of teen smokers, or teens thinking about starting up smoking, there can never be enough.

If smoking continues at the current rate among youth in this country, 5.6 million of todays Americans younger than 18 will die early from a smoking-related illness. Thats about 1 of every 13 Americans aged 17 years or younger alive today.
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_stat...a/tobacco_use/
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Old Jul 2, 2015, 12:32 pm
  #150  
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It's quite clear that neither of us is going to persuade the other to change his mind. Nevertheless, I have to respond:

Smoking is a dirty, expensive, unhealthy addiction. I don't like it any more than you do. But if you want to prevent impressionable teenagers from starting, then you should give presentations at high schools (or even middle schools). There's really little point in making an issue of this on FlyerTalk because almost nobody here is an impressionable teenager at risk of starting to smoke. We are adults, frequent flyers generally, set in our ways. Those of us who already smoke will either continue or stop based on outside forces (like the advice of our own doctors or the pleadings of family members), not warnings posted in a niche area of a travel site like this one.

Smokers have been getting an earful (and eyeful) of warnings about smoking for more than 50 years now. There is simply no purpose served by FlyerTalk chiming in as if this advice hasn't been heard a billion times already.

If Internet Brands feels the need to post a warning about smoking, then I'll just think they are silly. But it likely won't make a bit of difference to anybody who uses FlyerTalk with any regularity.

Bruce
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