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Rules against campaigning prevent TalkBoard from being relevant to most users

Rules against campaigning prevent TalkBoard from being relevant to most users

 
Old Sep 27, 2013, 6:49 pm
  #61  
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IMHO there are opportunities to discuss FT Rules and TB making changes or "recommending" changes

IMHO you brought up a good point re "TB Rules"
but at least in this case TB action on this particular "TB Rule" seems indirect >
Passed...recommend the following suggestions to [Community Director]
regardless, unless SanDiego1K says otherwise, TB could recommend a suggestion to reverse current "TB Rule"
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Old Sep 27, 2013, 7:17 pm
  #62  
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The actual Guideline / TOS is

Discussing Specific Moderator Actions - link to this guideline
On-board discussion of moderator decisions - including post deletions and member discipline - is not allowed and will be removed. Members will also be subject to disciplinary action. Similarly, posts announcing a member's return to FlyerTalk after a suspension or ban are not allowed. If you have a question about a moderator action, contact the moderator directly or Carol (SanDiego1k[/URL]).
But discussion and opinion about moderation, the moderation process and moderators is off topic here and subject to deletion unless it is related to the topic at hand: Rules against campaigning prevent TalkBoard from being relevant to most users.

There is nothing implicit or explicit that prevents members from discussing TalkBoard campaign rules and policy in the proper forum (in an airline or destination forum, it would be moved here), and I certainly hope we have not said anything that would lead any member to think differently.

(That's my job as a moderator - remind members of the TOS, welcome people and try to guide others to information sources, keep threads on topic, move them if they are in the incorrect forum, dispatch spammers, etc. My tiara is on a very dusty closet shelf, and as a member of some putative ruling class my actions are subject to review and corrective or disciplinary action by those who do manage this website.)
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Old Sep 27, 2013, 7:22 pm
  #63  
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Originally Posted by JDiver
unless it is related
wait, what?
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Old Sep 27, 2013, 7:33 pm
  #64  
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Originally Posted by JDiver
But discussion and opinion about moderation, the moderation process and moderators is off topic here and subject to deletion unless it is related to the topic at hand: Rules against campaigning prevent TalkBoard from being relevant to most users.
Just to be clear, there is no wording in the quoted rule that prohibits discussion of moderation practices as a whole. There is a prohibition on discussing specific moderation actions (and there's good reason for that rule), but--assuming it's on-topic for the respective thread/forum--there's nothing wrong with making comments on general principles of moderation.

Just wanted to make that point of information clear.

Last edited by jackal; Sep 27, 2013 at 7:38 pm
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Old Sep 27, 2013, 7:35 pm
  #65  
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That is absolutely correct; thank you. As one of two moderators of this forum, that's pretty much how I operate here.

Originally Posted by jackal
Just to be clear, there is no wording in the quoted rule that prohibits discussion of moderation practices as a whole. There is a prohibition on discussing specific moderation actions (and there's good reason for that rule), but--assuming it's on-topic for the respective thread/forum--there's nothing wrong with making comments on general principles of moderation.

Just wanted to make that point of information clear.
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Old Sep 27, 2013, 7:43 pm
  #66  
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ah, the general vs specific.
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Old Sep 27, 2013, 10:42 pm
  #67  
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Originally Posted by janetdoe
If we can't discuss campaign rules and policy for TB simply because the moderators are the people who enforce them... then we are in a very sad place.
I thought we were discussing campaign rules and TB policy? Why stop?
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Old Sep 28, 2013, 5:53 am
  #68  
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Then I would like to know if its ok that I PM FT friends/contacts recommending a specific vote (on a another person running) due to specific standpoints?

Is that illegal campaigning? From whom? Or does informing a few make it an uneven playing field? Does even mean that absolutely everyone must get the same information?
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Old Sep 28, 2013, 6:05 am
  #69  
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Originally Posted by janetdoe
Thank you for the explanation. I respect your contributions and your long history on FlyerTalk, but I have to say that I respectfully disagree with your decision in this case.

But I really didn't want to re-hash this issue in this thread, more to express my frustration with the way the campaigning restrictions are a) unclear for non-candidates and b) make it hard to 'get out the vote', even when voters are particularly engaged with an issue, and would likely be interested in voting if they knew it was an issue in the election.

I do wonder what is your perspective on the point and utility of TB (as compared to Jenbel and RichMSN).
janetdoe, no worries. As I mentioned I truly went back/forth on the issue, read everything by FTers & literally cast my vote in the last hours, having changed my perspective from when I started on the topic. I think I made the right decision, but also realize that others will not agree. This was one of the more hot button issues TB has dealt with & was a close vote.

I think you make a good point (your a) that the campaign rules might be unclear for 'non-candidates' & that might be something the CommunityDirector can mention either in public announcements or Talkmail or let the mod corps know so that they can better express it to FTers during the election timeframe, so thanks for bringing that up.

Re: the 2nd part (b), there is a way to do that:

If candidates or non-candidates are interested in bringing attention to issues (& not just campaigning for themselves in the case of candidates), they can bump the thread once & say 'hey there's an election going on, there are a variety of candidates with a variety of views, & if this issue (or others) is important to you, you might want to head over to TB to read the candidates bio/platforms, and answers to questions or raise a question that the CommunityDirector can ask.'

Heck, FTers & TB members have been known to do that when issues come up for discussion on motions and/or when voting is underway & not necessarily tied into election time.

Re: my perspective vs Rich & Jen's:

I don't regard TB as an 'experiment' & I do think TB is helpful to the functioning of FT. I think for the most part a lot of the main 'hot button' issues have gotten sorted over the years (there are still a few remaining) & guidelines created, so there's not as much broo-ha-ha & heated discussions/massive changes to the functioning of FT that used to exist in years past. That's not a bad thing and is a natural transition, especially as BBs such as FT mature. I don't think every issue has to be a hot-button issue to make TB relevant to FT & the CommunityDirector.

I think TB still holds a purpose as it is a place where FTers can go to suggest new forums & other items for the betterment of FT, where other FTers can weigh in, & TB members can consider the pros/cons/do research & bring up points that may or may not have occurred to other FTers, other TB members or the CommunityDirector, & then provide that input, in the private and public forum, to the CommunityDirector. Given the CD has multiple responsibilities, it helps to have a board that can synthesize & provide input.

koko mentioned in a post a few posts back that he views TB as a focus group for the CommunityDirector.

Cheers.
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Old Sep 28, 2013, 6:10 am
  #70  
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Originally Posted by travelkid
Then I would like to know if its ok that I PM FT friends/contacts recommending a specific vote (on a another person running) due to specific standpoints?

Is that illegal campaigning? From whom? Or does informing a few make it an uneven playing field? Does even mean that absolutely everyone must get the same information?
Your question is better addressed to the CommunityDirector since she's in charge of elections, not TB.

BTW - if a non-candidate does do PMs (presuming it's allowed; it's not for candidates), they might want to make sure the person they're PMing actually agrees w/ them. I received a PM a few years back doing what you suggested - the problem was I didn't agree w/ it & the end result was that it cemented my decision not to vote for the person they were PMing about

Cheers.
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Old Sep 28, 2013, 7:28 am
  #71  
 
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Originally Posted by SkiAdcock
Originally Posted by travelkid
Then I would like to know if its ok that I PM FT friends/contacts recommending a specific vote (on a another person running) due to specific standpoints?

Is that illegal campaigning? From whom? Or does informing a few make it an uneven playing field? Does even mean that absolutely everyone must get the same information?
Your question is better addressed to the CommunityDirector since she's in charge of elections, not TB.

BTW - if a non-candidate does do PMs (presuming it's allowed; it's not for candidates), they might want to make sure the person they're PMing actually agrees w/ them. I received a PM a few years back doing what you suggested - the problem was I didn't agree w/ it & the end result was that it cemented my decision not to vote for the person they were PMing about
I believe for us general members, we should refer to FT Guidelines and Rules about how we are expected to handle ourselves on FT. This is the specifics w/r/t using PMs and email:

Abuse of Private Messaging and FT E-mails

Flyertalk's private messaging and e-mails obtained through FlyerTalk while "private", still fall under the rules established here. They should not be used for commercial purposes, to send spam, to solicit cash payments for travel awards and points, or to threaten or harass members, moderators or administrators. Members who use them to circumvent the rules of the community will be subject to disciplinary action. If you receive this type of communication, report it immediately. Do not publish it on the board.
I don't know about others, but for me, if I did receive any PM or email with reference to a yes or no vote on a TB candidate from another fellow FTer, I would consider it a harassment (or even spam) and a sign of abusing FT's private communication channels for campaigning purposes. It doesn't matter whether I intend to vote for said TB candidate or not. YMMV.
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Old Sep 28, 2013, 10:39 am
  #72  
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IMO, the key issue here might be that you are communicating with friends or contacts here and not sending PMs to those who do not know you or haven't had exchanges with previously - the latter could view the PM as spam or intrusive, like those unsolicited election calls at dinnertime. (As others have said, that could produce some undesirable blowback - what we appear to do on another's behalf, such as advocacy, could affect that other person adversely with no fault of his / her own.)

PMing others for these kinds of purposes can be a bit like an accidental fender bender in a parking lot: the impact has greater bearing than the intent.

That's separate from FT policy; I'll let the Community Director limn out how that would play in this scenario, though I can't see where one member's PM would be considered "illegal campaigning" by a TB candidate unless (unlikely scenario) a candidate had enlisted members to campaign in such a way.


Originally Posted by travelkid
Then I would like to know if its ok that I PM FT friends/contacts recommending a specific vote (on a another person running) due to specific standpoints?

Is that illegal campaigning? From whom? Or does informing a few make it an uneven playing field? Does even mean that absolutely everyone must get the same information?
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Old Sep 29, 2013, 11:55 am
  #73  
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Originally Posted by travelkid
I havent seen what cactuspete is trying to say, and which has affected lots of great members, been taken seriously during my years at FT. But its probably hard when you are not allowed to discuss. "Ruling class" is the most accurate term I have seen. Sorry if this offends anyone, but I hope Im entitled to my opinion as well (coincidentally shared by large number of the people I have met at DOs FWIW).

And campaigning and other rules are not the problem. Wouldnt change a thing if TB closed down. Its just a pro-forma members representation/board. The main issue is TBs purview. There is the big black helicopter downside of making things properly democratic.
It's all about perspective, imho.

Moderators simply view FlyerTalk differently than non-moderators do. They view it as a resource and hang out, sure, but also as a labor of love. They spend time cleaning up spam, moving threads and occasionally doing discipline. And their only compensation is a trip to the Mod DO, a pat on the back from the CD and their own self-satisfaction.

These folks don't mind being told what to do by the CD, but they sure as hell are not going to take direction from the likes of the TB or the posters. After all, there are infinity approaches to moderation and they are going to use their own as guided by the mod best practices. So they'd prefer a 'thanks for the hard, free labor' to criticism, constructive or otherwise.

There are a number of former-mods who have acknowledged this key distinction in perspectives of FT based on their own personal perspective changing once they took their moderator hat off.

I do wish that the CD would expand the remit of the TB to be a focus group not just for what goes where, but also for how moderation policy affects the what-goes-where aspect of FT.

But I have tilted at that windmill for years and years and it's just not going to happen.

So circling this around to the OP, I don't think there will be significant movement on opening up issue advocacy beyond getting your say in this little-read TB Topics forum. Because things like that just don't change around here, for better or for worse.
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Old Sep 29, 2013, 2:50 pm
  #74  
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And still a great than you to the mods as a group^ FT would never have been this good without you. I would just like to see it improved even more.
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Old Sep 30, 2013, 9:38 pm
  #75  
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I'm sure nobody would argue with that.

BTW, we do appreciate constructive criticism, and such has been useful in our training and best practices. I suspect we will be discussing the issue of the difference between discussing specific moderator actions and applicable general discussion of moderation, for instance.

(At the Mod training we pay to attend, by the way - though there is a modest stipend, unless you are traveling from PDX to SEA it won't cover transport, much less transportation and lodging.)

It takes a lot of people to keep things running well, and with different work may come different perspectives - communication helps bridge the gaps that might exist. Campaigning is merely communication - but some limitations have been put on that communication, so here we are discussing it (well, as a moderator I am not so much dealing with that).

Originally Posted by travelkid
And still a great than you to the mods as a group^ FT would never have been this good without you. I would just like to see it improved even more.
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