MOTION PASSED: Create a 'Points & Miles Blogs' Forum
#136
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
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Posts: 38,506
There is also a need to discuss HOW information on the blogs is conveyed. It's not possible to do that on the blog owner's site, because if they don't like your comment, they just delete it. I think that in some small way, we might (MIGHT) bring some added accountability to the blogs if we have an open discussion here on FT about their practices. Think of it as the 'Better Blogger Bureau'. We could even have assign ratings based on how FTers perceive their ethics and business practices.
#137
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,185
Well I suppose I just don't see my role as being a lobbyist for this great idea.
Either you think that there is merit to FlyerTalk trying to stay on the leading edge of the points and miles space or you think TalkBoard should only make recommendations and react after the herd has moved through.
It seems to me that the TalkBoard has been incredibly neglectful at staying on top of/in front of points and miles trends. Heck, it has gotten so bad that Carol barely even consulted us before creating the Manufactured Spending forum. And I don't blame her...if she waited for us to do what I consider to be our job as TalkBoard members she'd never get anything innovative done.
And to be clear, I just don't view my role as TB member as that of being King Solomon, sitting on high waiting for folks to bring me folios filled with stats and math filled out in triplicate about creating a new forum. I view it more as eyes and ears to help spot and take advantage of trends so that FlyerTalk stays not just relevant but cutting edge.
So if you want to say, nah, my gut says this is not a move that has any chance of keeping FlyerTalk as the leader in the points and miles discussion space, then ok, I totally respect that. And frankly there is nothing more i can say to change your gut feeling about that that hasn't already been said.
But if you are telling me that I have not dotted the right i's or crossed the right t's or done the right math to demonstrate realized benefits as well as opportunity loss, well, you are talking apples and I am talking oranges. Because this great idea is about the FUTURE of FlyerTalk, not the present nor the past.
Will I be sad if this motion fails? Sure. But not for myself. For the opportunity loss for FlyerTalk.
Either you think that there is merit to FlyerTalk trying to stay on the leading edge of the points and miles space or you think TalkBoard should only make recommendations and react after the herd has moved through.
It seems to me that the TalkBoard has been incredibly neglectful at staying on top of/in front of points and miles trends. Heck, it has gotten so bad that Carol barely even consulted us before creating the Manufactured Spending forum. And I don't blame her...if she waited for us to do what I consider to be our job as TalkBoard members she'd never get anything innovative done.
And to be clear, I just don't view my role as TB member as that of being King Solomon, sitting on high waiting for folks to bring me folios filled with stats and math filled out in triplicate about creating a new forum. I view it more as eyes and ears to help spot and take advantage of trends so that FlyerTalk stays not just relevant but cutting edge.
So if you want to say, nah, my gut says this is not a move that has any chance of keeping FlyerTalk as the leader in the points and miles discussion space, then ok, I totally respect that. And frankly there is nothing more i can say to change your gut feeling about that that hasn't already been said.
But if you are telling me that I have not dotted the right i's or crossed the right t's or done the right math to demonstrate realized benefits as well as opportunity loss, well, you are talking apples and I am talking oranges. Because this great idea is about the FUTURE of FlyerTalk, not the present nor the past.
Will I be sad if this motion fails? Sure. But not for myself. For the opportunity loss for FlyerTalk.
I simply am not yet convinced that this is a net-positive move for FlyerTalk. But I remain open-minded! I am actively soliciting for you (or anyone) to change my mind! I am having a difficult time understanding why that request is going unanswered.
Your original idea was to in effect use FlyerTalk as a replacement for the comments section on most frequent traveler blogs. Your concern was two-fold: one, that comments on those blogs are censored, and two, that commenters have a better chance of being engaged and knowledgeable here on FlyerTalk rather than on the blogs, where most of the people who read (and comment?) are less knowledgeable than our fellow FlyerTalkers.
As to the first point, it is something I've never personally witnessed, although I am not a frequent commenter and only ever check--rarely--a couple of blogs. As to the second point, I would not necessarily dispute that. However, I expressed skepticism that the format of your original proposal--to basically replace the comments section on the blogs with a comments section here--was workable--what would make someone, even an FTer heavily invested in the community, who wants to comment on a blog post to spend the time to go seek out a place to do so on FlyerTalk rather than using the handy-dandy comment submission form right on the blog itself? I doubt I would. Thus, I didn't think it would succeed.
It seems like it wasn't until the motion was brought forward to a vote that all this discussion about needing a place to talk about blogs and bloggers and who's a trustworthy source of information and who has a hidden ulterior motive and all of that was put together with this proposal. Thus, while those are important points to consider, it seems to me that the current proposal may not be the best way to address all of that.
In any case, I've waited until close to the end of the voting period to allow the maximum amount of time for discussion in hopes that someone would address the questions I raised earlier or otherwise post something that convinces me to support the motion. So far, that has not happened. I remain quite confused why you seem like you only want to post meaningless platitudes rather than concrete reasons on why this is indeed the best way to meet this need. If you want me to support it, then you need to help me understand in concrete terms--I know that's hard for you MBTI N types--why you think this proposal is a great idea and will succeed, not tell me I should assume it will.
#138
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,334
Just about to vote yes
Like some of my TB colleagues, I've spent a lot of time reading the two TBT threads on this issue, thinking about the arguments, and attempting to inform myself by reading some of the megathread, specifically the first page, random posts, and everything that's been posted this month. I wish a clearer case had been made for the proposal.
Nevertheless, my somewhat philosophical view is that I like the idea of giving new fora a chance; I don't see how a huge harm results if an experiment is later shown not to work well. I also see travel/miles/points blogs as being logically part of the subject of FT, just like travel tools belong here on FT as their discussion is beneficial to FT members. Having a separate forum will avoid all of the difficulties inherent in the megathread. There will also be a distinct area created in which cross comparisons of blogs will be viewed as appropriate and where systematic aspects of particular blogs--such as some being less accurate than others when discussing various FF program rules--can be pointed out. As blogs increasingly censor comments with varying degrees of attempting to eliminate any critical comments, it's important to us on FT to have a place where factual and fair criticism can discussed.
For the record, I tend to reject the argument that posters in such a new forum might misbehave. Most people here are mature and can be trusted to generally follow the rules; some of the exceptions are likely to cause trouble on other fora too and perhaps should lose their FT privileges, but of course that's a matter of moderator policy and actions. Inappropriate posts that violate the FT TOS should be dealt with according to established procedures. This is why moderators get paid the big bucks.
Also for the record, I think BlogTalk or whatever it's called should be a separate forum, probably listed near Travel Tools (maybe call it Blog Tools?) on FT, and not appear as a subforum in Travel News.
Nevertheless, my somewhat philosophical view is that I like the idea of giving new fora a chance; I don't see how a huge harm results if an experiment is later shown not to work well. I also see travel/miles/points blogs as being logically part of the subject of FT, just like travel tools belong here on FT as their discussion is beneficial to FT members. Having a separate forum will avoid all of the difficulties inherent in the megathread. There will also be a distinct area created in which cross comparisons of blogs will be viewed as appropriate and where systematic aspects of particular blogs--such as some being less accurate than others when discussing various FF program rules--can be pointed out. As blogs increasingly censor comments with varying degrees of attempting to eliminate any critical comments, it's important to us on FT to have a place where factual and fair criticism can discussed.
For the record, I tend to reject the argument that posters in such a new forum might misbehave. Most people here are mature and can be trusted to generally follow the rules; some of the exceptions are likely to cause trouble on other fora too and perhaps should lose their FT privileges, but of course that's a matter of moderator policy and actions. Inappropriate posts that violate the FT TOS should be dealt with according to established procedures. This is why moderators get paid the big bucks.
Also for the record, I think BlogTalk or whatever it's called should be a separate forum, probably listed near Travel Tools (maybe call it Blog Tools?) on FT, and not appear as a subforum in Travel News.
#139
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DCA
Programs: UA Gold
Posts: 1,653
hobo13 addressed this question in the other thread:
There is also a need to discuss HOW information on the blogs is conveyed. It's not possible to do that on the blog owner's site, because if they don't like your comment, they just delete it. I think that in some small way, we might (MIGHT) bring some added accountability to the blogs if we have an open discussion here on FT about their practices. Think of it as the 'Better Blogger Bureau'. We could even have assign ratings based on how FTers perceive their ethics and business practices.
Ultimately, the deal stands on its own. It's either good, or it's bad. No matter the source.
#140
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in PALMYRA, PA, USA
Posts: 58,510
Like nsx, I'm not penalizing you for not having "dotted the right i's or crossed the right t's or done the right math." If I become convinced that this move is the right move for FlyerTalk, then I will vote yes. If I remain convinced that this move is not productive for FlyerTalk, then I will vote no. It just so happens that your best chance of convincing me that it will be productive is to address the questions that I and many others have posed that you (and other proponents of the idea) seem to be completely ignoring. But if something comes up that suddenly makes me think it will be a positive idea, then I will not let the lack of any forms or questionnaires or mathematically-sound answers or whatever stand in the way of a "yes" vote.
I simply am not yet convinced that this is a net-positive move for FlyerTalk. But I remain open-minded! I am actively soliciting for you (or anyone) to change my mind! I am having a difficult time understanding why that request is going unanswered.
Your original idea was to in effect use FlyerTalk as a replacement for the comments section on most frequent traveler blogs. Your concern was two-fold: one, that comments on those blogs are censored, and two, that commenters have a better chance of being engaged and knowledgeable here on FlyerTalk rather than on the blogs, where most of the people who read (and comment?) are less knowledgeable than our fellow FlyerTalkers.
As to the first point, it is something I've never personally witnessed, although I am not a frequent commenter and only ever check--rarely--a couple of blogs. As to the second point, I would not necessarily dispute that. However, I expressed skepticism that the format of your original proposal--to basically replace the comments section on the blogs with a comments section here--was workable--what would make someone, even an FTer heavily invested in the community, who wants to comment on a blog post to spend the time to go seek out a place to do so on FlyerTalk rather than using the handy-dandy comment submission form right on the blog itself? I doubt I would. Thus, I didn't think it would succeed.
It seems like it wasn't until the motion was brought forward to a vote that all this discussion about needing a place to talk about blogs and bloggers and who's a trustworthy source of information and who has a hidden ulterior motive and all of that was put together with this proposal. Thus, while those are important points to consider, it seems to me that the current proposal may not be the best way to address all of that.
In any case, I've waited until close to the end of the voting period to allow the maximum amount of time for discussion in hopes that someone would address the questions I raised earlier or otherwise post something that convinces me to support the motion. So far, that has not happened. I remain quite confused why you seem like you only want to post meaningless platitudes rather than concrete reasons on why this is indeed the best way to meet this need. If you want me to support it, then you need to help me understand in concrete terms--I know that's hard for you MBTI N types--why you think this proposal is a great idea and will succeed, not tell me I should assume it will.
I simply am not yet convinced that this is a net-positive move for FlyerTalk. But I remain open-minded! I am actively soliciting for you (or anyone) to change my mind! I am having a difficult time understanding why that request is going unanswered.
Your original idea was to in effect use FlyerTalk as a replacement for the comments section on most frequent traveler blogs. Your concern was two-fold: one, that comments on those blogs are censored, and two, that commenters have a better chance of being engaged and knowledgeable here on FlyerTalk rather than on the blogs, where most of the people who read (and comment?) are less knowledgeable than our fellow FlyerTalkers.
As to the first point, it is something I've never personally witnessed, although I am not a frequent commenter and only ever check--rarely--a couple of blogs. As to the second point, I would not necessarily dispute that. However, I expressed skepticism that the format of your original proposal--to basically replace the comments section on the blogs with a comments section here--was workable--what would make someone, even an FTer heavily invested in the community, who wants to comment on a blog post to spend the time to go seek out a place to do so on FlyerTalk rather than using the handy-dandy comment submission form right on the blog itself? I doubt I would. Thus, I didn't think it would succeed.
It seems like it wasn't until the motion was brought forward to a vote that all this discussion about needing a place to talk about blogs and bloggers and who's a trustworthy source of information and who has a hidden ulterior motive and all of that was put together with this proposal. Thus, while those are important points to consider, it seems to me that the current proposal may not be the best way to address all of that.
In any case, I've waited until close to the end of the voting period to allow the maximum amount of time for discussion in hopes that someone would address the questions I raised earlier or otherwise post something that convinces me to support the motion. So far, that has not happened. I remain quite confused why you seem like you only want to post meaningless platitudes rather than concrete reasons on why this is indeed the best way to meet this need. If you want me to support it, then you need to help me understand in concrete terms--I know that's hard for you MBTI N types--why you think this proposal is a great idea and will succeed, not tell me I should assume it will.
Anyway, thanks for remaining open minded.
To be blunt, I fear that the bolded bit may be part of the issue here.
Although you and many 'old-timers' do not regularly visit blogs the fact is that many new members do. In fact I'd say it is safe to assume that many, many new FlyerTalk members actually find FlyerTalk via a points and miles blog anymore.
Even for me, while blogs will never replace FlyerTalk as my go-to source for points and miles information, as my life keeps getting busier and busier I do find that when time is short I will check a few blogs rather than page through FlyerTalk. Especially blogs that do a good job of aggregating information about programs that are important to me.
Which do I read? Which do a good job of following the programs I care about? What programs are those? How accurate, helpful and timely are those blogs?
Vote for the new forum and we can talk about it! @:-)^
#141
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DCA
Programs: UA Gold
Posts: 1,653
Nevertheless, my somewhat philosophical view is that I like the idea of giving new fora a chance; I don't see how a huge harm results if an experiment is later shown not to work well. I also see travel/miles/points blogs as being logically part of the subject of FT, just like travel tools belong here on FT as their discussion is beneficial to FT members. Having a separate forum will avoid all of the difficulties inherent in the megathread. There will also be a distinct area created in which cross comparisons of blogs will be viewed as appropriate and where systematic aspects of particular blogs--such as some being less accurate than others when discussing various FF program rules--can be pointed out. As blogs increasingly censor comments with varying degrees of attempting to eliminate any critical comments, it's important to us on FT to have a place where factual and fair criticism can discussed.
...
Also for the record, I think BlogTalk or whatever it's called should be a separate forum, probably listed near Travel Tools (maybe call it Blog Tools?) on FT, and not appear as a subforum in Travel News.
...
Also for the record, I think BlogTalk or whatever it's called should be a separate forum, probably listed near Travel Tools (maybe call it Blog Tools?) on FT, and not appear as a subforum in Travel News.
#142
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Over the Bay Bridge, CA
Programs: Jumbo mas
Posts: 38,506
Well, the "news is the news," too, but if you watch, i.e., a channel that has a Hannity, you might find is just slightly different than if you watch the Maddow channel. It is also important to hear, i.e., when ABC reports on a story about a Disney product, that there is a footnote about the ownership.
#143
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Location: DCA
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Posts: 1,653
Well, the "news is the news," too, but if you watch, i.e., a channel that has a Hannity, you might find is just slightly different than if you watch the Maddow channel. It is also important to hear, i.e., when ABC reports on a story about a Disney product, that there is a footnote about the ownership.
Why can't the discussion of the deal be placed in the appropriate existing forum?
Instead of three posts on how Blog X, Y, and Z reported Credit Card #1, wouldn't the most appropriate action be to discuss Credit Card #1, in the existing FT forum. That way, the actually merits of the deal can be discussed, instead of how Bloggers X, Y, or Z presented it.
Basically it comes down to - What's more important - The discussion of the actual deals, or discussion on how they are presented?
#144
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
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Posts: 100,334
#145
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,185
I would lean towards the completely opposite take. I would see the new forum as a place to discuss all travel information sources, whether blogs, news sites, travel columninsts, or even other forums.
#146
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in PALMYRA, PA, USA
Posts: 58,510
So every deal is reported slightly differently. Who cares?
Why can't the discussion of the deal be placed in the appropriate existing forum?
Instead of three posts on how Blog X, Y, and Z reported Credit Card #1, wouldn't the most appropriate action be to discuss Credit Card #1, in the existing FT forum. That way, the actually merits of the deal can be discussed, instead of how Bloggers X, Y, or Z presented it.
Basically it comes down to - What's more important - The discussion of the actual deals, or discussion on how they are presented?
Why can't the discussion of the deal be placed in the appropriate existing forum?
Instead of three posts on how Blog X, Y, and Z reported Credit Card #1, wouldn't the most appropriate action be to discuss Credit Card #1, in the existing FT forum. That way, the actually merits of the deal can be discussed, instead of how Bloggers X, Y, or Z presented it.
Basically it comes down to - What's more important - The discussion of the actual deals, or discussion on how they are presented?
Do you know which blogs make money for steering you after Chase cards? Would that affect how you read their blog posts about Chase cards?
Do you know which blogs accept free travel from travel providers and which do not? Would that affect how much stock you put in their trip reports or reporting regarding the points or miles program of the travel providers who provide them with the free travel?
There is a whole world to talk about beyond the description of the deals on the blogs, just as there is a whole world of mileage plus to talk about beyond the mileage plus terms and conditions.
#147
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in PALMYRA, PA, USA
Posts: 58,510
Oh, one other thought in terms of talking about the deals themselves...
Currently when the deals get talked about in the megathread, they get talked about. Right now there is a conversation going on about Discover Card, for example, and whether it has a meaningful cash back program.
If there was a forum, talk like that could be easily directed to the credit card deals forum where it belongs rather than having it buried in the megathread. @:-)
Currently when the deals get talked about in the megathread, they get talked about. Right now there is a conversation going on about Discover Card, for example, and whether it has a meaningful cash back program.
If there was a forum, talk like that could be easily directed to the credit card deals forum where it belongs rather than having it buried in the megathread. @:-)
#148
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: RDU
Programs: A few
Posts: 5,499
Oh, one other thought in terms of talking about the deals themselves...
Currently when the deals get talked about in the megathread, they get talked about. Right now there is a conversation going on about Discover Card, for example, and whether it has a meaningful cash back program.
If there was a forum, talk like that could be easily directed to the credit card deals forum where it belongs rather than having it buried in the megathread. @:-)
Currently when the deals get talked about in the megathread, they get talked about. Right now there is a conversation going on about Discover Card, for example, and whether it has a meaningful cash back program.
If there was a forum, talk like that could be easily directed to the credit card deals forum where it belongs rather than having it buried in the megathread. @:-)
#149
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in PALMYRA, PA, USA
Posts: 58,510