Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Community > TalkBoard Topics
Reload this Page >

Proposal: New forum to discuss bloggers

Proposal: New forum to discuss bloggers

 
Old Mar 12, 13, 6:57 am
  #31  
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth
Programs: UA 1K/MM refugee to cheapest business class fare, SPG Lifetime Plat, CBP Global Entry, #datelife
Posts: 52,658
Originally Posted by lin821 View Post
The bottom line is how many FTers can really just discuss the content of blogs or faceless corporations, and not getting personal with bloggers. In this post, tcook052 had provided excellent real-life examples that FTers don't have a good track record of separating blogs from bloggers. I've also lost count of how many threads got closed over the years when it came to discuss bloggers and/or blogs.

This proposal might sound good at first look, to have a dedicated forum to discuss blogs/bloggers. But further down the road, only troubles await. Should we burden our thankless MODs with such an impossible task?
Do mods close threads when the topic strays from discussing UNITED to discussing Jeff Smisek? If so, I suppose I should be banned for life by now. @:-)

Again, blogs are commercial service providers to the points and miles community.

FlyerTalk is an IBB created to talk about commercial service providers to the points and miles community.

To me, this is one of the biggest no-brainers in some time.
kokonutz is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 7:01 am
  #32  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Programs: SPG Platinum, UA GS
Posts: 121
And Flyertalk members discuss blogs now in MilesBuzz. The question is whether the topic needs its own forum.

There's a good bit of concern here that many blogs are so individual-centric, even including people that are part of the community, that it wouldn't be productive to dedicate a forum to a topic that gets so personal and even nasty.

Recent MilesBuzz discussion of blogs has even devolved into posters referencing the sexual orientation of more than one blogger. So the question here is, do we need more of that?
FlyFasterFlyFarther is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 7:38 am
  #33  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Home
Programs: AA, Delta, UA & thanks to FTers for my PC Gold!
Posts: 7,659
Originally Posted by kokonutz View Post
Do mods close threads when the topic strays from discussing UNITED to discussing Jeff Smisek? If so, I suppose I should be banned for life by now. @:-)
Whether you should enjoy a RV ride, koko, is not up to me nor open for discussion since it's about a specific moderation issue/action. You should have known better.

Having said that, not specific to UA Forum, I've seen MODs close threads when discussion turns onto individuals and/or personality, instead of topic at hand. This is one example thread that eventually got closed in TravelBuzz! Forum with quoting one MOD's note on (my underlined) TOS:

Originally Posted by Ocn Vw 1K View Post
A quote from a key FlyerTalk rule is necessary at this point: "If you disagree with another member, challenge the opinion or idea - not the person." Posts which have strayed from this and/or which have gone off-topic have been edited or deleted. Whether or not the thread remains open will depend, inter alia, on whether the subject and not individual members is discussed. Thank you, Ocn Vw 1K, Moderator.
In koko's example of discussion on Jeff, according to my understanding of TOS, if Jeff Smisek is on FT and posting as a FTer, I don't think MODs will allow personally attacks on him.

So, is Jeff Smisek a FTer?

Originally Posted by kokonutz View Post
Again, blogs are commercial service providers to the points and miles community.

FlyerTalk is an IBB created to talk about commercial service providers to the points and miles community.

To me, this is one of the biggest no-brainers in some time.
Don't get me wrong. I am not disputing blogs provide (certain) services.

Having said that, unless my challenge is satisfied, koko, this shouldn't be a no-brainer, let it be biggest or not.

So my challenge remains:

How many FTers can really just discuss the content of blogs or faceless corporations, and not getting personal with bloggers who happen to be FTers?
lin821 is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 8:21 am
  #34  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 68,596
Originally Posted by FlyFasterFlyFarther View Post
And Flyertalk members discuss blogs now in MilesBuzz. The question is whether the topic needs its own forum.

There's a good bit of concern here that many blogs are so individual-centric, even including people that are part of the community, that it wouldn't be productive to dedicate a forum to a topic that gets so personal and even nasty.

Recent MilesBuzz discussion of blogs has even devolved into posters referencing the sexual orientation of more than one blogger. So the question here is, do we need more of that?
I would say no.

Cheers.
SkiAdcock is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 11:10 am
  #35  
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth
Programs: UA 1K/MM refugee to cheapest business class fare, SPG Lifetime Plat, CBP Global Entry, #datelife
Posts: 52,658
Originally Posted by lin821 View Post
Whether you should enjoy a RV ride, koko, is not up to me nor open for discussion since it's about a specific moderation issue/action. You should have known better.

Having said that, not specific to UA Forum, I've seen MODs close threads when discussion turns onto individuals and/or personality, instead of topic at hand. This is one example thread that eventually got closed in TravelBuzz! Forum with quoting one MOD's note on (my underlined) TOS:



In koko's example of discussion on Jeff, according to my understanding of TOS, if Jeff Smisek is on FT and posting as a FTer, I don't think MODs will allow personally attacks on him.

So, is Jeff Smisek a FTer?


Don't get me wrong. I am not disputing blogs provide (certain) services.

Having said that, unless my challenge is satisfied, koko, this shouldn't be a no-brainer, let it be biggest or not.

So my challenge remains:

How many FTers can really just discuss the content of blogs or faceless corporations, and not getting personal with bloggers who happen to be FTers?
I never really understood the 'we have to protect FlyerTalkers from themselves' mentality. We are all adults here. If folks can't play by the rules they are punished. Protecting FTers from the 'temptation of making things personal' is a terrible reason to not provide forum for a particular service.

UA Insider takes a lot of heat for the stuff she (now he, I guess) posts. Because a lot of it is crap corporate propaganda where Jeff pees on us and UA Insider tells us it's raining. But that's his JOB. Same with bloggers. They create a commercial venture where they say stuff as a service to points and miles folks. They are not and should not be made out to be a protected class just because some of us know some bloggers personally or because they post here on FT. @:-)
kokonutz is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 11:40 am
  #36  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,816
Originally Posted by kokonutz View Post
They are not and should not be made out to be a protected class just because some of us know some bloggers personally or because they post here on FT. @:-)
Agreed. For comparison, look at the Newsstand forum, where news articles are posted and comments are offered. I doubt any of us goes searching to see if authors of articles posted there are members of FT and whether we should avoid commenting because they might be members. If you post in the public realm, be it a news article or a blog, your material is open to commentary and your FT membership should have no bearing on it.

I was not aware that some bloggers delete comments that they find unfavorable. I think that's all the more reason that an open discussion of blogs should be allowed here. If there's information being deleted that would be of benefit to the travel community, FT can serve as a conduit for getting that information out.
tom911 is online now  
Old Mar 12, 13, 12:01 pm
  #37  
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO, CDG, PBI
Programs: Lifetime (for now) Gold MM, HH Gold, Giving Tootsie Pops to UA employees, & a retired hockey goalie
Posts: 28,593
Originally Posted by tcook052 View Post
....MHO is FT should stay as the definitive source for information about travel and deals and not a place to come talk about other places.
I agree as well and if such a forum was created, imho, I can only see it going down hill wikid fast
goalie is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 12:24 pm
  #38  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Home
Programs: AA, Delta, UA & thanks to FTers for my PC Gold!
Posts: 7,659
Originally Posted by kokonutz View Post
Protecting FTers from the 'temptation of making things personal' is a terrible reason to not provide forum for a particular service.
Is it fair to say you are admitting such temptation presents an non-negligible challenge to both members and MODs if this proposal became reality on FT?

Currently, even without the establishment of such commenting blogs forum, the hostility towards bloggers are already so very much in the air of FT. I really can't say this proposed forum won't become an inviting corner to share venting/ranting corner against bloggers. What good will that do for FT, really?

Originally Posted by kokonutz View Post
...bloggers. ...are not and should not be made out to be a protected class just because ... they post here on FT. @:-)
Originally Posted by tom911 View Post
If you post in the public realm, be it a news article or a blog, your material is open to commentary and your FT membership should have no bearing on it.
(bolding mine)

I am not advocating any protected class on FT. Our TOS makes it clear that every FTer is of the same protected class.

I do agree publicly shared material is a fair game. AFAIK, FTers are not shy commenting on any topic or material. However, there's often a very thin line between commenting on material vs. commenting on individual bloggers. Stop by OMNI/PR and you know what I am talking about, between discussing ideas and choking your "enemies" or some that don't agree. And OMNI/PR is a relaxed corner for TOS to start with.

When it comes to bloggers, history has proved itself that (thin) line does get crossed on FT, not once, not twice, but countless times. Does FT need to create a forum that essentially facilitates hostility?

Last edited by lin821; Mar 12, 13 at 12:33 pm Reason: clarification
lin821 is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 1:25 pm
  #39  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Programs: Gold, plat, diamond and more
Posts: 3,360
I fully support OPs idea. I probably support the classification as no-brainer too

I guess a few senior mods would easily handle any start up problems- if any at all.
travelkid is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 1:47 pm
  #40  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend and Moderator: Air Canada Aeroplan, Canada & Manufactured Spending
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Posts: 53,485
Originally Posted by kokonutz View Post
UA Insider takes a lot of heat for the stuff she (now he, I guess) posts. Because a lot of it is crap corporate propaganda where Jeff pees on us and UA Insider tells us it's raining. But that's his JOB. Same with bloggers. They create a commercial venture where they say stuff as a service to points and miles folks.
It's UA Insider's full-time JOB to represent their company and is why their FT handle is green and if they wanted to spend time here on their own would need a personal username. It's not the case with most bloggers who may do it only part-time and spend time on their own participating in FT so treating them the same won't work as IMHO they aren't.
tcook052 is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 2:13 pm
  #41  
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth
Programs: UA 1K/MM refugee to cheapest business class fare, SPG Lifetime Plat, CBP Global Entry, #datelife
Posts: 52,658
Originally Posted by tcook052 View Post
It's UA Insider's full-time JOB to represent their company and is why their FT handle is green and if they wanted to spend time here on their own would need a personal username. It's not the case with most bloggers who may do it only part-time and spend time on their own participating in FT so treating them the same won't work as IMHO they aren't.
Nevertheless, both United Airlines and a points and miles blog are commercial ventures serving the points and miles community.

And let's be clear, I do not believe that the point of this forum should be to post things like 'I read kokosmilesblog and that guy a freaking a-hole.' That is clearly a TOS violation.

But I do believe it would be incredibly useful for FTers to have a place to say, for example, 'Can you believe that kokosmilesblog is pumping UNITED again? Did you know that UNITED is a major sponsor of that blog and gives koko free GS status? (lots of rolleyes)'

Let's be clear: posters here did not blur the line between FlyerTalk poster status and commercial service provider. The bloggers do. They choose to cross over from community member to commercial service provider. No one should blame the posters for wanting to talk about a commercial service provider, nor should it be frowned upon just because the service providerwas a FlyerTalker before he or she was a commercial service provider.

As Mary2e points out, we have a great model to follow in the Travel Tools forum. In that forum commercial travel tools, many of which started as hobbies by FlyerTalkers, are discussed and debated. It's very helpful and informative.

Last edited by kokonutz; Mar 12, 13 at 2:21 pm
kokonutz is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 3:19 pm
  #42  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend and Moderator: Air Canada Aeroplan, Canada & Manufactured Spending
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Posts: 53,485
Originally Posted by kokonutz View Post
As Mary2e points out, we have a great model to follow in the Travel Tools forum. In that forum commercial travel tools, many of which started as hobbies by FlyerTalkers, are discussed and debated. It's very helpful and informative.
It's very helpful and informative as members bring tools to Travel Tools forum to help FTers but bloggers are seen as taking and not giving so would expect a potential blogger forum to not have as positive a tone as that forum enjoys. For that and the other structural reasons I've mentioned I wouldn't be in favor of creating a blogger discussion forum.

Last edited by tcook052; Mar 12, 13 at 10:12 pm
tcook052 is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 9:39 pm
  #43  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: IAD/DCA
Posts: 31,595
it can be a way to bring blog readers to FT forum (as opposed to moderated comments on blogs)

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...ech-brand.html
Kagehitokiri is offline  
Old Mar 12, 13, 10:20 pm
  #44  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: DEN
Programs: UA 1K, once-upon-a-time NW Gold, BMI Gold, Hyatt Diamond, SPG Gold
Posts: 6,249
Originally Posted by tcook052 View Post
It's not the case with most bloggers who may do it only part-time and spend time on their own participating in FT so treating them the same won't work as IMHO they aren't.
Not sure I completely understand the post....

But I trust the FT community to differentiate between blogs which are commercial ventures and ones which are run as a hobby. Frankly, it should be painfully obvious.

And the ones that are commercial ventures -- how is discussing them really any different than discussing a story in the MSM? They are both media outlets, and we should discuss the content of their publication. In the case of the MSM, you can bet that any relevant story gets a thread in Travel News. In the case of the commercial blogs, however, EVERY story is relevant -- this proposal is basically to create a consistent and convenient place for those discussions which it seems obvious should be taking place on FT, the definitive source for travel....
hobo13 is offline  
Old Mar 13, 13, 4:28 am
  #45  
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, External Miles & Points Resources
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 40,774
I like the idea of creating a forum where people bring up a blog entry and debate it.

Lets say you read this blog: http://www.a-cocktail-a-day.com/ (intentionally picking a unknown uncontroversial blog) and you want to know where the author took the photos of Pamukkale in Turkey and if there is a trip report somewhere on FT or how to get there on Chase UR points on the Labor Day weekend, so you go to the new forum and open a thread. A fellow FTer may come along and tell you that Iceland is a much better option that time of year, since its less travel time and you can use AS miles. Why talk about it on FT and not on the blog itself? Well, it may be that you want to debate this with your peers, kind of how you talk about the movie you saw with your buddies in a bar and not on facebook.

It doesn't mean you start (offensively) commenting on the blogger itself, and if you have questions why she got invited by Starbucks to try out their winter specials or why Coca-Cola sponsored her post about a polar bear video, I'm sure they can be asked while keeping in line with the current ToS (or future versions that will probably address the commercial issues in more detail).
oliver2002 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: