Does FT "attitude" drive newbies to blogs?
Sep 5, 2012, 2:35 pm
#166
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Um, who are "those in power"? I am 
. Post count does not equate to power, any more than an "Evangelist" tag or airline or hotel status do - they may be knowledgeable, or not; they may be helpful, or not.
IMO IB and the Community Director have actual power, a number of us serve with their assent and direction, and the only other people, members "in power" might be so because we give them the power - to push our buttons, etc.
The TOS are pretty much enforced AFAIK - they may be subject to mildly different interpretations, but generally a moderator who ignored the TOS would be, er, "demoderated'. But there may also be some who learn how to use words to skirt the TOS, much like some skaters might skate the edge of the pond to avoid thinner ice.
The TOS currently states (and is spot on, IMO):
If we walked this, FT would likely be a lot friendlier. I realize some feel everyone should search assiduously, and others take advantage and may post, with lots of time and posts on FT, "sorry, searched but didn't find anything - so here's my question:" and ask a question that has been asked many times and is easy to find because there are a Welcome announcement, FAQ "sticky" and Wiki.
That seems to push other's buttons and instead of using the
or choosing to move along without responding because this is very often crossed territory feel they must stop and make a strike against the poster.
Our challenge is to try to establish consistency of response (or move on). If we all followed the TOS (or moved on without comment or a I believe FT would be friendlier and more welcoming to those who find FT (as opposed to a Blog, etc.) their kind of place. I believe we can do it, and I hope this kind of discussion helps us to so.
. Post count does not equate to power, any more than an "Evangelist" tag or airline or hotel status do - they may be knowledgeable, or not; they may be helpful, or not. IMO IB and the Community Director have actual power, a number of us serve with their assent and direction, and the only other people, members "in power" might be so because we give them the power - to push our buttons, etc.
The TOS are pretty much enforced AFAIK - they may be subject to mildly different interpretations, but generally a moderator who ignored the TOS would be, er, "demoderated'. But there may also be some who learn how to use words to skirt the TOS, much like some skaters might skate the edge of the pond to avoid thinner ice.
The TOS currently states (and is spot on, IMO):
Welcome Newcomers - link to this guideline
FlyerTalk is friendly, informative, fun and thriving. When newcomers arrive, welcome them. By helping folks learn, you provide a shining example of what this community is about, and you help ensurethat FlyerTalk continues to flourish. New members may not understand FlyerTalk and its history as well as you do. Remember we were all newbies once.
If you notice a poster, newcomer or not, asking a question that has been answered previously or is answered in the forum FAQs, please be patient. If you wish to reply, do so in a helpful manner, avoiding simply saying: "Do a search."
We suggest this form of reply and a template for it is here: "Your question arises from time-to-time in this forum. One thread which discusses it is here [INSERT LINK TO THREAD OR FORUM FAQ] and using FlyerTalk's advanced search feature to search this forum with the terms [insert relevant term(s)] will yield other threads. If you are finding difficulty using the search feature, please send a private message or email to a forum moderator for help."
FlyerTalk is friendly, informative, fun and thriving. When newcomers arrive, welcome them. By helping folks learn, you provide a shining example of what this community is about, and you help ensurethat FlyerTalk continues to flourish. New members may not understand FlyerTalk and its history as well as you do. Remember we were all newbies once.
If you notice a poster, newcomer or not, asking a question that has been answered previously or is answered in the forum FAQs, please be patient. If you wish to reply, do so in a helpful manner, avoiding simply saying: "Do a search."
We suggest this form of reply and a template for it is here: "Your question arises from time-to-time in this forum. One thread which discusses it is here [INSERT LINK TO THREAD OR FORUM FAQ] and using FlyerTalk's advanced search feature to search this forum with the terms [insert relevant term(s)] will yield other threads. If you are finding difficulty using the search feature, please send a private message or email to a forum moderator for help."
That seems to push other's buttons and instead of using the
or choosing to move along without responding because this is very often crossed territory feel they must stop and make a strike against the poster. Our challenge is to try to establish consistency of response (or move on). If we all followed the TOS (or moved on without comment or a
I believe FT would be friendlier and more welcoming to those who find FT (as opposed to a Blog, etc.) their kind of place. I believe we can do it, and I hope this kind of discussion helps us to so.There are also those who have been doing what you've suggested, who model behavior that should be replicated by others, who welcome newbies, etc., and yet they experience much frustration due to resistance to change from those who are in power and who claim to have the best interests of FT in mind or see snarky comments made by those who are in power. What type of message does that send, both to new members who asked a question and those who are more experienced, but take a chance in asking a question, only to see a snarky response from someone who is in power?
Time and time again, it seems that any time there is discussion of a change to the TOS, there are some very negative reactions, even when others volunteer to help with the potential extra work. Hence, the frustration felt by those who think that some of these changes would be good. Likewise, just because TB proposes and approves a change doesn't mean that it will continue in perpetuity. If they approve a change, moderators try it for 6 months or so, and it's found that it just doesn't work, they can vote on reverting back to the old way of doing it.
You did also say:
I usually take we to mean most/all, not just 1.
I think that if TB were to pass an amendment to the TOS suggesting that posts stating "go search" or characters that don't add to the conversation be deleted, members would RBP posts like that. Right now, I would guess most don't, because they won't be deleted.
I would like to see a more welcoming environment, not just to new members, but experienced members venturing into forums out of their normal visits.
Time and time again, it seems that any time there is discussion of a change to the TOS, there are some very negative reactions, even when others volunteer to help with the potential extra work. Hence, the frustration felt by those who think that some of these changes would be good. Likewise, just because TB proposes and approves a change doesn't mean that it will continue in perpetuity. If they approve a change, moderators try it for 6 months or so, and it's found that it just doesn't work, they can vote on reverting back to the old way of doing it.
You did also say:
I usually take we to mean most/all, not just 1.
I think that if TB were to pass an amendment to the TOS suggesting that posts stating "go search" or characters that don't add to the conversation be deleted, members would RBP posts like that. Right now, I would guess most don't, because they won't be deleted.
I would like to see a more welcoming environment, not just to new members, but experienced members venturing into forums out of their normal visits.
Sep 5, 2012, 5:47 pm
#167
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Now with that being said, one cannot change how people post ("do a search" 
vs actually being helpful ^) and it would be nice if folks would follow the latter but I also <and now ducking> think that moderators should be deleting the "do a search" type of posts as they (imho) are not helpful and if a moderator sees such a post, perhaps they could step up and direct the poster to the appropriate thread(s) as possibly (n.b. possibly) with the cooperation & combination of moderators and proactive members, it could be a step in the right direction (yeah, I know, a pipe-dream but still 
)
<and ducking even further/farther> I really don't want to hear that it's too much work for the moderators because afaic, that is imho, part of their job (just like deleting posts of "+1" but I digress
)
vs actually being helpful ^) and it would be nice if folks would follow the latter but I also <and now ducking> think that moderators should be deleting the "do a search" type of posts as they (imho) are not helpful and if a moderator sees such a post, perhaps they could step up and direct the poster to the appropriate thread(s) as possibly (n.b. possibly) with the cooperation & combination of moderators and proactive members, it could be a step in the right direction (yeah, I know, a pipe-dream but still )<and ducking even further/farther> I really don't want to hear that it's too much work for the moderators because afaic, that is imho, part of their job (just like deleting posts of "+1" but I digress
)Any change of attitude can only come from the members themselves and not by any outside force or control. That is merely my own slightly biased humble opinion of course.
Whether one takes on a position (paid or volunteer), it IS a job-sometimes thankless and sometimes completely regarding but it is still a job and with the "job" come responsibilities and yes, having a moderator read each and every post is unrealistic but (and I don't mean any disrespect
) but there are some moderators who are vicious with the hatchet while there are others who are far more forgiving and with that, there is an implication that some might be paying a bit more attention to detail than others. Now, I don't want this to delve into the realm of discussing moderator actions as that is a no-no but rather if a moderator sees something, they should say something (and I can't believe I just used a TSA catch phrase 
) and from my reading of new threads, I see a lot of "do a search" and etc and it would seem to me that if a new thread pops-up, that should be catching a moderator's eye.Moderators are volunteers, however, they volunteer to perform a job. If a moderator believes that what is being asked of them is "wholly unrealistic," they have the option to resign, as there are numerous other FT'ers who would happily give back to the community in that type of role.....
We volunteered to perform a role but don't view it as a "job" and don't feel quality control monitoring every post in every forum every day is the answer to improving the overall tone of FT. As has been pointed out this is a large community and that kind of micro management isn't IMHO workable.
but perhaps friendly reminders here and there regarding "do a search type posts"
Sep 5, 2012, 10:38 pm
#168
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As he is advocating stickies with hotel information, which I take to mean reviews like we see on the hotel forums, I'm just curious as to whether he's posted the very information he wants added on the destination forums. It would be like me suggesting we need a running master thread on the AA forum with free beverages available in every Admiral's Club, yet not posting a single time what free beverages were provided to me or when the wines or beers have changed.
I look at it from an outsiders eye......
If I am planning to say travel to Washignton Dc or London I would go and look at the destinations thread to get information....so its natural to want to do research on by reading past threads before I post a question on What hotels are good in x location of the city....it would be good to have a thread on hotels.
If I am not familiar with the hotels there I am not going to know what chains are located there.
If I wanted to stay at a hotel in Boston why go to the Hilton, Marriott, etc threads and try to find what hotels to stay at...why not just set up a master thread of "hotels in Boston" then people can write their reviews there or you ask people to try and do double posted...it isnt to hard to do a copy and paste.
Im not saying setting up hotel threads for every single city....but instead do it for some of the larger more travelled cities (Boston, SF, NY) or vacation cities (Orlando, LV)
What I saw on the New Zealand destination thread did a really good job in summarizing with multiple posts about stuff if you were thinking of visiting it without the clutter of side bar comments/questions.
Sep 5, 2012, 11:01 pm
#169
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Maybe it's time to spin that topic off into a new thread here in the Talk Board forum so others that may hold similar views will know it's being discussed. I'd be interested in hearing the views of the Talk Board members and destination forum moderators on the topic, but having it buried down at the bottom of a three week old thread about blogs and attitude doesn't give it the attention it deserves.
Sep 6, 2012, 12:46 am
#170
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,342
Reading this last page, I found djp98374's idea interesting. As a college student, I don't stay in hotels very much, preferring to crash in friends' dorms when possible, and have very little loyalty to any hotel chain. For the foreseeable future, any status I could get on a hotel chain would be from a credit card.
I agree with both sides to a certain extent, but tom911's comment about TripAdvisor made me think...this would be almost exactly like TripAdvisor, which has a listing of the best hotels in each city.
With TripAdvisor, I find it easy look through that list and take a few that you like (in terms of price, star level, hotel chain, location, etc.), and then look it up in the hotel chain forum to see reports from people who recently stayed there.
There are many sites with hotel reviews. Perhaps people here would feel more reassured if the reviews came from a FTer (I probably would, especially if it's a handle I recognize or one with a strong reputation). Maybe then, it would be a good idea to just have a listing of some of the best (highly rated?) hotels for each chain stickied for destinations, and leave the hotel reviews in their respective hotel chain forums. No issue with cross posting, and easy enough for people to identify the best hotels in a certain city, and then be able to find them in the hotel forums.
Just my 2 cents...
I agree with both sides to a certain extent, but tom911's comment about TripAdvisor made me think...this would be almost exactly like TripAdvisor, which has a listing of the best hotels in each city.
With TripAdvisor, I find it easy look through that list and take a few that you like (in terms of price, star level, hotel chain, location, etc.), and then look it up in the hotel chain forum to see reports from people who recently stayed there.
There are many sites with hotel reviews. Perhaps people here would feel more reassured if the reviews came from a FTer (I probably would, especially if it's a handle I recognize or one with a strong reputation). Maybe then, it would be a good idea to just have a listing of some of the best (highly rated?) hotels for each chain stickied for destinations, and leave the hotel reviews in their respective hotel chain forums. No issue with cross posting, and easy enough for people to identify the best hotels in a certain city, and then be able to find them in the hotel forums.
Just my 2 cents...
Sep 6, 2012, 5:55 am
#171
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From JDiver's post # 169
"The TOS currently states (and is spot on, IMO):
Quote:
Welcome Newcomers - link to this guideline
FlyerTalk is friendly, informative, fun and thriving. When newcomers arrive, welcome them. By helping folks learn, you provide a shining example of what this community is about, and you help ensurethat FlyerTalk continues to flourish. New members may not understand FlyerTalk and its history as well as you do. Remember we were all newbies once.
If you notice a poster, newcomer or not, asking a question that has been answered previously or is answered in the forum FAQs, please be patient. If you wish to reply, do so in a helpful manner, avoiding simply saying: "Do a search."
We suggest this form of reply and a template for it is here: "Your question arises from time-to-time in this forum. One thread which discusses it is here [INSERT LINK TO THREAD OR FORUM FAQ] and using FlyerTalk's advanced search feature to search this forum with the terms [insert relevant term(s)] will yield other threads. If you are finding difficulty using the search feature, please send a private message or email to a forum moderator for help."
If we walked this, FT would likely be a lot friendlier. I realize some feel everyone should search assiduously, and others take advantage and may post, with lots of time and posts on FT, "sorry, searched but didn't find anything - so here's my question:" and ask a question that has been asked many times and is easy to find because there are a Welcome announcement, FAQ "sticky" and Wiki.
That seems to push other's buttons and instead of using the or choosing to move along without responding because this is very often crossed territory feel they must stop and make a strike against the poster.
Our challenge is to try to establish consistency of response (or move on). If we all followed the TOS (or moved on without comment or a I believe FT would be friendlier and more welcoming to those who find FT (as opposed to a Blog, etc.) their kind of place. I believe we can do it, and I hope this kind of discussion helps us to so."
Agree.
Cheers.
"The TOS currently states (and is spot on, IMO):
Quote:
Welcome Newcomers - link to this guideline
FlyerTalk is friendly, informative, fun and thriving. When newcomers arrive, welcome them. By helping folks learn, you provide a shining example of what this community is about, and you help ensurethat FlyerTalk continues to flourish. New members may not understand FlyerTalk and its history as well as you do. Remember we were all newbies once.
If you notice a poster, newcomer or not, asking a question that has been answered previously or is answered in the forum FAQs, please be patient. If you wish to reply, do so in a helpful manner, avoiding simply saying: "Do a search."
We suggest this form of reply and a template for it is here: "Your question arises from time-to-time in this forum. One thread which discusses it is here [INSERT LINK TO THREAD OR FORUM FAQ] and using FlyerTalk's advanced search feature to search this forum with the terms [insert relevant term(s)] will yield other threads. If you are finding difficulty using the search feature, please send a private message or email to a forum moderator for help."
If we walked this, FT would likely be a lot friendlier. I realize some feel everyone should search assiduously, and others take advantage and may post, with lots of time and posts on FT, "sorry, searched but didn't find anything - so here's my question:" and ask a question that has been asked many times and is easy to find because there are a Welcome announcement, FAQ "sticky" and Wiki.
That seems to push other's buttons and instead of using the or choosing to move along without responding because this is very often crossed territory feel they must stop and make a strike against the poster.
Our challenge is to try to establish consistency of response (or move on). If we all followed the TOS (or moved on without comment or a I believe FT would be friendlier and more welcoming to those who find FT (as opposed to a Blog, etc.) their kind of place. I believe we can do it, and I hope this kind of discussion helps us to so."
Agree.
Cheers.
Sep 6, 2012, 6:36 am
#172
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Um, who are "those in power"? I am . Post count does not equate to power, any more than an "Evangelist" tag or airline or hotel status do - they may be knowledgeable, or not; they may be helpful, or not.
IMO IB and the Community Director have actual power, a number of us serve with their assent and direction, and the only other people, members "in power" might be so because we give them the power - to push our buttons, etc.
. Post count does not equate to power, any more than an "Evangelist" tag or airline or hotel status do - they may be knowledgeable, or not; they may be helpful, or not. IMO IB and the Community Director have actual power, a number of us serve with their assent and direction, and the only other people, members "in power" might be so because we give them the power - to push our buttons, etc.
The TOS are pretty much enforced AFAIK - they may be subject to mildly different interpretations, but generally a moderator who ignored the TOS would be, er, "demoderated'. But there may also be some who learn how to use words to skirt the TOS, much like some skaters might skate the edge of the pond to avoid thinner ice.
Our challenge is to try to establish consistency of response (or move on). If we all followed the TOS (or moved on without comment or a I believe FT would be friendlier and more welcoming to those who find FT (as opposed to a Blog, etc.) their kind of place. I believe we can do it, and I hope this kind of discussion helps us to so.
Our challenge is to try to establish consistency of response (or move on). If we all followed the TOS (or moved on without comment or a
I believe FT would be friendlier and more welcoming to those who find FT (as opposed to a Blog, etc.) their kind of place. I believe we can do it, and I hope this kind of discussion helps us to so.
Sep 6, 2012, 9:01 am
#173
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 35
Someone here mentioned that threads should have stickies or some updates done to the first post or something. Well, that's a grande idea, but who has to do that work? The OP? Some secret person? A Moderator? Oh sure, some may feel compelled to do such work and in many cases it makes things better for them as well, or they just love making lists, but it's a ton of work and we are lucky when it's done. But it should not be 'expected' all the time, now should it? So how much are we going to pay that person to constantly make and update such lists, or hope that they have the free time to do that for us?
To that point I guess the question is what's the best way to disseminate said information. Blogs do so in a nice easy to read manner whereas flyertalk often has more in-depth information which is posted quicker but it's harder to get at due to a couple of factors: One being the attitude. The other is the fact that it's time prohibitive to read a 200 page thread and while the search function helps it also takes time, is cumbersome and often doesn't get you what you need without also reading hundred of posts to find one small piece of information.
Someone said wiki's were off topic for this thread and I disagree. Wikis would be an ideal solution to the problem outlined above but I think the attitude plays into the resistance to implementing it. I'm thinking some on this board want it to be hard to get at data for a few reasons. It may keep deals alive longer (which is why some of them hate blogs), they have always had to spend hours reading and so should everyone else, they feel special for having certain knowledge, etc.
As to who would do the actual editing I'm not sure why people think this would be an issue. The entire board is based on people giving information, what's the difference if they do so in a post like this or if they edit a wiki? I guess you could have some system where they get "credit" for their edit to the wiki and/or first post in a thread but I'm confused as to how this is any more work than posting updated information as it stands now? I could see this being an issue if only one person had access to edit said wikii but that's not how they work. I don't know if there was a way to open up the editing in the first post of a thread in a similar manner if the powers that be didn't want to do wikis for some reason?
Sep 6, 2012, 3:44 pm
#174
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Reading this last page, I found djp98374's idea interesting. As a college student, I don't stay in hotels very much, preferring to crash in friends' dorms when possible, and have very little loyalty to any hotel chain. For the foreseeable future, any status I could get on a hotel chain would be from a credit card.
I agree with both sides to a certain extent, but tom911's comment about TripAdvisor made me think...this would be almost exactly like TripAdvisor, which has a listing of the best hotels in each city.
With TripAdvisor, I find it easy look through that list and take a few that you like (in terms of price, star level, hotel chain, location, etc.), and then look it up in the hotel chain forum to see reports from people who recently stayed there.
There are many sites with hotel reviews. Perhaps people here would feel more reassured if the reviews came from a FTer (I probably would, especially if it's a handle I recognize or one with a strong reputation). Maybe then, it would be a good idea to just have a listing of some of the best (highly rated?) hotels for each chain stickied for destinations, and leave the hotel reviews in their respective hotel chain forums. No issue with cross posting, and easy enough for people to identify the best hotels in a certain city, and then be able to find them in the hotel forums.
Just my 2 cents...
I agree with both sides to a certain extent, but tom911's comment about TripAdvisor made me think...this would be almost exactly like TripAdvisor, which has a listing of the best hotels in each city.
With TripAdvisor, I find it easy look through that list and take a few that you like (in terms of price, star level, hotel chain, location, etc.), and then look it up in the hotel chain forum to see reports from people who recently stayed there.
There are many sites with hotel reviews. Perhaps people here would feel more reassured if the reviews came from a FTer (I probably would, especially if it's a handle I recognize or one with a strong reputation). Maybe then, it would be a good idea to just have a listing of some of the best (highly rated?) hotels for each chain stickied for destinations, and leave the hotel reviews in their respective hotel chain forums. No issue with cross posting, and easy enough for people to identify the best hotels in a certain city, and then be able to find them in the hotel forums.
Just my 2 cents...
I find a place like this could be a tad more objective. Though there will be bias just like anyplace.
Im looking at it as a way to reduce the "where do I stay" threads.
Last edited by djp98374; Sep 6, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Sep 6, 2012, 8:36 pm
#175
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,342
It has been well documented that reveiews on places such as trip advisor and yelp can be questions about objectivity...such as someone being paid a $10 to post a good review...or Yelp being paid by places to remove poor reviews posted on their site.
I find a place like this could be a tad more objective. Though there will be bias just like anyplace.
Im looking at it as a way to reduce the "where do I stay" threads.
I find a place like this could be a tad more objective. Though there will be bias just like anyplace.
Im looking at it as a way to reduce the "where do I stay" threads.
This thread is largely about FT's attitude towards newbies. Many FTers have cited newbies who don't search and just want people to feed them answers as a major contributor to this problem. It's not too difficult to do some of your own research first, then come back to FT. There are many sites already that list best hotels in a city. And actually, FT search allows you to choose many forums in which to search. You can just select all the hotel forums to perform your search.
Sep 6, 2012, 8:45 pm
#176
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Well, I can tell all here that this thread and the amount of kibitzing it has evolved into has pretty much driven ME to ignore it and focus on just earning my miles and points elsewhere in FT...
I mainly come to Flyertalk to do sharing of things in threads that CONSTRUCT. And in PMs and emails that I develop with people who share like-minded ideas and earning/burning/travel concepts. I only came in here tonight to say all this for those who care and also realize the same problem.
Know that this thread has just turned me OFF as a person who has posted regularly here for 10+ years--for what it's worth. I mean, c'mon people... listen to yourselves!
MM
I have just unsubscribed from this one. Enjoy it!
I mainly come to Flyertalk to do sharing of things in threads that CONSTRUCT. And in PMs and emails that I develop with people who share like-minded ideas and earning/burning/travel concepts. I only came in here tonight to say all this for those who care and also realize the same problem.
Know that this thread has just turned me OFF as a person who has posted regularly here for 10+ years--for what it's worth. I mean, c'mon people... listen to yourselves!
MMI have just unsubscribed from this one. Enjoy it!
Sep 7, 2012, 1:55 am
#177
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Someone said wiki's were off topic for this thread and I disagree. Wikis would be an ideal solution to the problem outlined above but I think the attitude plays into the resistance to implementing it. I'm thinking some on this board want it to be hard to get at data for a few reasons. It may keep deals alive longer (which is why some of them hate blogs), they have always had to spend hours reading and so should everyone else, they feel special for having certain knowledge, etc.
As to who would do the actual editing I'm not sure why people think this would be an issue. The entire board is based on people giving information, what's the difference if they do so in a post like this or if they edit a wiki? I guess you could have some system where they get "credit" for their edit to the wiki and/or first post in a thread but I'm confused as to how this is any more work than posting updated information as it stands now? I could see this being an issue if only one person had access to edit said wikii but that's not how they work. I don't know if there was a way to open up the editing in the first post of a thread in a similar manner if the powers that be didn't want to do wikis for some reason?
As to who would do the actual editing I'm not sure why people think this would be an issue. The entire board is based on people giving information, what's the difference if they do so in a post like this or if they edit a wiki? I guess you could have some system where they get "credit" for their edit to the wiki and/or first post in a thread but I'm confused as to how this is any more work than posting updated information as it stands now? I could see this being an issue if only one person had access to edit said wikii but that's not how they work. I don't know if there was a way to open up the editing in the first post of a thread in a similar manner if the powers that be didn't want to do wikis for some reason?
Cheers.
Sep 7, 2012, 3:07 pm
#178
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As there is no commitment from any of the Talk Board members or moderators that anything is changing as a result of this thread, he may have made a wise decision. It's just members venting at this point.
Sep 11, 2012, 9:18 pm
#179
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In the two busier forums I moderate only a small fraction of problematic posts are ever reported.
I would think that if it was decided that posts that simply said, "Do a search," or something similar, or posts that contained only a ^ +1 or other characters that added nothing would be deleted going forward, you'd see a lot of members reporting such posts.
^ +1 or other characters that added nothing would be deleted going forward, you'd see a lot of members reporting such posts.
Thus, the only additional work would be for moderators to delete those posts reported to them or those that they find in their normal reading of FT.
Whatever speech restriction is being proposed here I hope it is crafted with great care for clarity as to its intent and payoff to members.
Sep 11, 2012, 11:08 pm
#180
Moderator: Hyatt Gold Passport & Star Alliance
Join Date: May 1998
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