Does FT "attitude" drive newbies to blogs?
#31
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A # of people are helpful & welcoming to newbies; some are snarky. Sometimes regulars tell the snarky folk to lighten up on the newbies. After all we were all newbies at one point. Some forums are known for being snarky; others are not. Perhaps it's due to size & # of posts.
Still comes down to moderation. If the moderators see a problem, they deal with it. If you have a complaint about a poster, notify a moderator. If you're not happy there, onto the Community Director. Nothing for the Talk Board to get involved with and I can't see a need for any policy changes.
#32
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Very well said! I completely agree and see the trend occur on a daily basis.
I think of the quotation "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" applies as I know FTers are a generous lot who are willing to help educate fellow members but are reticent and may react with attitude to those new arrivals who aren't willing to put forth an effort to learn even the basics and simply ask for the shortcuts or answers.
I think of the quotation "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" applies as I know FTers are a generous lot who are willing to help educate fellow members but are reticent and may react with attitude to those new arrivals who aren't willing to put forth an effort to learn even the basics and simply ask for the shortcuts or answers.
Thankfully, people in places like the Destination Forums actually treat new posters with respect, and a willingness to help.
For example....you'll actually find long-time posters there explaining the nuances of the German rail system without a condescending attitude...or a directive to read the entire Die Bahn code of practices and procedures (in original German of course). Why? Because the initial poster is unfamiliar with a foreign transportation option, and is simply asking Flyertalkers for help.
Imagine that Flyertalk can work.
#33
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that was one that got under my skin... I'm willing to read... yes, all 1400 pages... but not when it is literally in another language. I just wanted some help deciphering the code they speak in there. At least one kind soul pointed me to a post with the "trick it" Rosetta stone.
#34
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We're seeing some of the snarkiness on the AA forum. With an influx of UA flyers comped in at EXP, there's some new threads that veteran AA posters think should be added to prior threads on the topic, or not posted at all because the topics are covered in the wiki. You won't see me complaining because I could care less and can just bypass threads I'm not interested in, but it does seem to grab some attention on that forum and compel veterans to offer their comments. Mind you these are not new FTers that are starting these threads, but FTers that have been around for a while and are just new to the AA forum.
Still comes down to moderation. If the moderators see a problem, they deal with it. If you have a complaint about a poster, notify a moderator. If you're not happy there, onto the Community Director. Nothing for the Talk Board to get involved with and I can't see a need for any policy changes.
Still comes down to moderation. If the moderators see a problem, they deal with it. If you have a complaint about a poster, notify a moderator. If you're not happy there, onto the Community Director. Nothing for the Talk Board to get involved with and I can't see a need for any policy changes.
#35
Moderator: American AAdvantage
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One of two stickies in this Forum is entitled Do Not Post Opinions of Moderation, Moderators or Their Actions Here <link>. The post therein states:
The TOS / Rules also address this issue. Posts discussing moderation will be deleted summarily.
Thanks!
JDiver, Senior Moderator/Moderator: American AAdvantage, iDine, and Talkboard Topics
This is the TalkBoard Forum.
It is not the Moderator Forum.
If you have complaints/questions/compliments/etc about moderator actions or policies, or moderation in general, then address them to Carol ("SanDiego1K"), the Flyertalk Community Director.
The TalkBoard does not make policy for the moderators. The moderators serve at Carol's pleasure and their decisions follow from her guidance, not the TalkBoard's.
I do not want to have to keep editing posts that contain explicit or implicit objections to moderators' actions or moderation itself. This is not the place for the Airing of Grievances.
Thank you,
Spiff, TalkBoard Forum Moderator (not currently)
(N.B. Spiff is actually currently TalkBoard President)
It is not the Moderator Forum.
If you have complaints/questions/compliments/etc about moderator actions or policies, or moderation in general, then address them to Carol ("SanDiego1K"), the Flyertalk Community Director.
The TalkBoard does not make policy for the moderators. The moderators serve at Carol's pleasure and their decisions follow from her guidance, not the TalkBoard's.
I do not want to have to keep editing posts that contain explicit or implicit objections to moderators' actions or moderation itself. This is not the place for the Airing of Grievances.
Thank you,
Spiff, TalkBoard Forum Moderator (not currently)
(N.B. Spiff is actually currently TalkBoard President)
Thanks!
JDiver, Senior Moderator/Moderator: American AAdvantage, iDine, and Talkboard Topics
#36
formerly known as 2lovelife
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Exactly, the reality is that pushy intimidating posting occurs. It leaves a bad taste in new members mouths, and even in rusty old member like me.
<redacted>
We owe it to ourselves to bring the snarkiness tone down. Some attempts to reign things may, however, appear like a power trip. Moderators take enough heat without needing to make enemies. So, we're right back to where we started, with a big elephant in the room.
<redacted>
<redacted>
We owe it to ourselves to bring the snarkiness tone down. Some attempts to reign things may, however, appear like a power trip. Moderators take enough heat without needing to make enemies. So, we're right back to where we started, with a big elephant in the room.
<redacted>
Last edited by JDiver; Aug 18, 2012 at 12:53 pm Reason: redacted moderation discussion
#37
Moderator: American AAdvantage
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Again: moderation concerns are to be directed to the moderator her/himself, the moderation team concerned, the Senior Moderators or the Community Director. This has been mentioned, is in the "sticky" and will be enforced in accordance with those.
JDiver, Senior Moderator/Moderator: American AAdvantage, iDine, and Talkboard Topics
But IMO, the crux of the matter was addressed by seanthepilot:
The single and most effective way to both show newbies what behaviors we want from newbies and to assure a welcoming , informative and respectful forum is to model those behaviors ourselves.
JDiver, Senior Moderator/Moderator: American AAdvantage, iDine, and Talkboard Topics
But IMO, the crux of the matter was addressed by seanthepilot:
We owe it to ourselves to bring the snarkiness tone down.
Last edited by JDiver; Aug 18, 2012 at 12:58 pm
#38
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TalkBoard has absolutely no involvement in how individuals behave.
#39
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Have you complained to the moderators there? We can't discuss their actions here because it is against the rules.
#40
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JDiver, though, does not speak for the Talk Board. Only two Talk Board members have participated in this thread, one with a rather long post (SkiAdcock) explaining her views. Maybe the rest are all off on vacation or just don't have anything to say on the topic.
#41
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This is exactly why the Mileage Run board has become such an awful place to visit. My skin crawls when I read the "tough love" regularly dished out in the Trick it board.
Thankfully, people in places like the Destination Forums actually treat new posters with respect, and a willingness to help.
For example....you'll actually find long-time posters there explaining the nuances of the German rail system without a condescending attitude...or a directive to read the entire Die Bahn code of practices and procedures (in original German of course). Why? Because the initial poster is unfamiliar with a foreign transportation option, and is simply asking Flyertalkers for help.
Imagine that Flyertalk can work.
Thankfully, people in places like the Destination Forums actually treat new posters with respect, and a willingness to help.
For example....you'll actually find long-time posters there explaining the nuances of the German rail system without a condescending attitude...or a directive to read the entire Die Bahn code of practices and procedures (in original German of course). Why? Because the initial poster is unfamiliar with a foreign transportation option, and is simply asking Flyertalkers for help.
Imagine that Flyertalk can work.
You are right in that there is friction generated by newer posters drawn by the FD opportunities but who arent willing to invest the time to try and learn more about it and often will freely admit as much which draws some sharp responses.
Id wager if you prefaced your query in a destination forum with an admission you couldnt be bothered searching for the answer yourself and expected long-time members to give you the shortcuts the response might be as sharp as in the Trick It thread.
Ive found over the years how input is sought will in large part determine how it is given.
#42
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Somehow, and I have a hard time articulating this, there's a difference between a "tell me about..." and "plan my trip for me." I'm happy to tell you my opinions about anything... properties I've been to, classes of services, or anything that doesn't take much work for me.
I'm not happy to plan your trip for you for no compensation. That starts getting into consulting, and requires me to *work* (ok, you hit on that word) with you to figure out something that is feasible and that you will enjoy. And for that, I want to be compensated.
For some reason, if someone says they're HHonors Gold and SPG Gold, and want to know what their best option in BKK is, it's a question I'm willing to answer. If one starts a post that says, "I want a free week in BKK, what do I do?" well, I'm just not that interested in answering that question and will just move on. Why? It's hard to articulate, but it's how I feel.
I'm not happy to plan your trip for you for no compensation. That starts getting into consulting, and requires me to *work* (ok, you hit on that word) with you to figure out something that is feasible and that you will enjoy. And for that, I want to be compensated.
For some reason, if someone says they're HHonors Gold and SPG Gold, and want to know what their best option in BKK is, it's a question I'm willing to answer. If one starts a post that says, "I want a free week in BKK, what do I do?" well, I'm just not that interested in answering that question and will just move on. Why? It's hard to articulate, but it's how I feel.
In the beginning I did my due diligence, and still do, and phrase a questions with, "I see I can do XYZ or MNO. But, what if I want HIJ? I think it lets others see you have made an attempt to find the answer, but you still have questions. I have never gotten a bad reply. I believe it is a difference between, "I've tried and I don't know what I am doing wrong, please help." And "Do it for me", which is what you said.
With FT becoming so popular, we are seeing a lot more of the "Do it for me" just because of the sheer numbers of people coming in. I don't believe percentage wise that there are more. With more people flying than in previous generations and more people having access to the internet, FT just gets a lot more traffic. Blogs mention FT as a source and newbies get attracted to what they believe is the holy grail. But, the holy grail is mystical and effort is needed to unlock her secrets.
Actually, I think all Forums should have a Newbies read this first type of thread. I know many do, but it would give those basics that will get someone new to think about what they want and how to ask for help. Face it, usually one of the first replies to a newbie is usually, Where do you want to go? When? How long? How many people? Which class? Heck, I've written that reply a number of times myself. I usually finishes with - read. Maybe we need a newbie sticky.
#43
Join Date: Mar 2003
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I think maybe more alarming is FT attitude driving away old time FTers to blogs.
I personally know dozens of FTers who have been around since almost the beginning and who have been a part of the FT community for years, both online and in attending and hosting Dos. Sadly many of them no longer post here because of the attitude encountered in the forums. It's FT's loss, as these are level-headed, professional individuals who lament the direction FT is taking.
I personally know dozens of FTers who have been around since almost the beginning and who have been a part of the FT community for years, both online and in attending and hosting Dos. Sadly many of them no longer post here because of the attitude encountered in the forums. It's FT's loss, as these are level-headed, professional individuals who lament the direction FT is taking.
#44
Join Date: Jun 2001
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I think maybe more alarming is FT attitude driving away old time FTers to blogs.
I personally know dozens of FTers who have been around since almost the beginning and who have been a part of the FT community for years, both online and in attending and hosting Dos. Sadly many of them no longer post here because of the attitude encountered in the forums. It's FT's loss, as these are level-headed, professional individuals who lament the direction FT is taking.
I personally know dozens of FTers who have been around since almost the beginning and who have been a part of the FT community for years, both online and in attending and hosting Dos. Sadly many of them no longer post here because of the attitude encountered in the forums. It's FT's loss, as these are level-headed, professional individuals who lament the direction FT is taking.
My favorite response to newbies is "do a search." Um, search has been broken for, um, ever since I've been an FT member and that's over 10 years now. The last time I saw someone reply to a newbie with "see what you get when you search?" they provided a link to 5 or so results. The first three had about three posts each, and consisted of the OP asking the question and two more "bumps" searching for Bueller. Nice "welcome to FT" with that one...
#45
Join Date: Sep 2005
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I’m sorry to hear that but hope you aren't judging the two forums based upon a single thread. The MR Moderation team is always willing to listen to input and any member who has concerns is encouraged to share them with us.
You are right in that there is friction generated by newer posters drawn by the FD opportunities but who aren’t willing to invest the time to try and learn more about it and often will freely admit as much which draws some sharp responses.
I’d wager if you prefaced your query in a destination forum with an admission you couldn’t be bothered searching for the answer yourself and expected long-time members to give you the shortcuts the response might be as sharp as in the Trick It thread.
I’ve found over the years how input is sought will in large part determine how it is given.
You are right in that there is friction generated by newer posters drawn by the FD opportunities but who aren’t willing to invest the time to try and learn more about it and often will freely admit as much which draws some sharp responses.
I’d wager if you prefaced your query in a destination forum with an admission you couldn’t be bothered searching for the answer yourself and expected long-time members to give you the shortcuts the response might be as sharp as in the Trick It thread.
I’ve found over the years how input is sought will in large part determine how it is given.
So the reason posters are abandoning Flyertalk is not a Flyertalk “attitude” per se, but the poster’s failure to properly demonstrate a level of sophistication, and an adequate amount of upfront research .
In other words:
• A poster interested in travelling by train from Budapest to Kiev must demonstrate basic knowledge of the Hungarian and Ukranian rail system.
• A poster interested in opening a Chase Sapphire credit card is expected to have a satisfactory working knowledge of the point redemption options.
• A poster interested in purchasing a discounted Buffalo to Omaha air ticket should be familiar with United’s mileage earning schedules under ticket Classes B, F and H.
How much pre-posting investment of time do you propose is adequate to “earn” a Flyertalk response? Is a week enough? A month? Should the Flyertalk Board demand verification of research?
It’s no wonder posters are abandoning Flyertalk if you’re going to castigate the intentions and motives of new/inexperienced posters with a “Prove to me you’re worthy of my time and effort, and you’ll secure a response” approach.
Moreover, your characterization of posters has absolutely no basis in reality. Almost never do I see posters acting like this. I would be more than happy to randomly select a dozen forums on Flyertalk, and challenge you to find me one poster who prefaces a request for help the way you presented it. It simply does not happen, outside of the very rare instance. Yet, somehow you find it common, and use it to justify the lack of civility on the boards.
The really unfortunate part of all of this is that the Mileage Run board, along with MileBuzz, and the Credit Card forums are where most new members gravitate. They're looking for airline miles and/or flight deals.
And if the message Flyertalk is sending them is reflective of your post, we all lose.