Does FT "attitude" drive newbies to blogs?
Sep 12, 2012, 12:48 am
#181
formerly known as 2lovelife
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: ORF : UA_Premier_Gold4Life, Bonvoy_titanium, Accor_Plat
Posts: 6,952
I see a major problem in some members' thinking (sorry, if I am being to bold). I have read this many times.
The concept is that a good Flyertalk member has to be a 'giver' and not just a 'taker.' This is just not true.
Some people post. Some post a lot. Some post (what I may refer to as) dribble, while others post fantastic information.
Other Flyertalk members just read. They don't post much. And it must be ok. If no one read people's posts, we'd really be in trouble... posting for no reason whatsoever.
Flyertalk has many uses. One is to use the information laid in previous posts. Another is to contribute, if one chooses to do so.
If people want to make judgement on who is a 'good' or 'worthy' FT member, that is fine. But when they take it out on new posters with a snarky attitude, then I think it's all of our business. In fact we have a responsibility at that point to let the offending member know that voicing their opinion in this fashion is not acceptable.
THE BUCK SHOULD STOP HERE.
>>> BAD ATTITUDE UNWELCOME HERE... ESPECIALLY WHEN IT INVOLVES NEWER MEMBERS
but that's just my opinion
Some people are more concerned with being the off-topic police
I like the thinking. If the snarkiness won't go away, let's target their keywords. In a word.... "Brilliant!" @:-)
This is a perfect example of how the future of bulletin boards should be. ONE THREAD which can be viewed in MORE THAN ONE FORUM. It's just database management. It can't be difficult to produce (I know, let me have it now...).
If you can't stand a healthy discussion, then the right move is to unsubscribe. Flyertalk has many of these type of discussions, but most of them are in private forums. I think it's very healthy for this type of debate to take place amongst the whole membership. There is no need for every thread to have an action point or solution. But the discussion and involvement of all, for all to see, is something we should promote, not back away from.
It's just a healthy discussion.
The concept is that a good Flyertalk member has to be a 'giver' and not just a 'taker.' This is just not true.
Some people post. Some post a lot. Some post (what I may refer to as) dribble, while others post fantastic information.
Other Flyertalk members just read. They don't post much. And it must be ok. If no one read people's posts, we'd really be in trouble... posting for no reason whatsoever.
Flyertalk has many uses. One is to use the information laid in previous posts. Another is to contribute, if one chooses to do so.
If people want to make judgement on who is a 'good' or 'worthy' FT member, that is fine. But when they take it out on new posters with a snarky attitude, then I think it's all of our business. In fact we have a responsibility at that point to let the offending member know that voicing their opinion in this fashion is not acceptable.
THE BUCK SHOULD STOP HERE.
>>> BAD ATTITUDE UNWELCOME HERE... ESPECIALLY WHEN IT INVOLVES NEWER MEMBERS
but that's just my opinion
Some people are more concerned with being the off-topic police
I think that if TB were to pass an amendment to the TOS suggesting that posts stating "go search" or characters that don't add to the conversation be deleted, members would RBP posts like that. Right now, I would guess most don't, because they won't be deleted.
If I am planning to say travel to Washignton Dc or London I would go and look at the destinations thread to get information....so its natural to want to do research on by reading past threads before I post a question on What hotels are good in x location of the city....it would be good to have a thread on hotels.
If I am not familiar with the hotels there I am not going to know what chains are located there.
If I am not familiar with the hotels there I am not going to know what chains are located there.
It's just a healthy discussion.
Sep 12, 2012, 8:31 am
#182
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Home
Programs: AA, Delta, UA & thanks to FTers for my PC Gold!
Posts: 7,676
If I am planning to say travel to Washignton Dc or London I would go and look at the destinations thread to get information....so its natural to want to do research on by reading past threads before I post a question on What hotels are good in x location of the city....it would be good to have a thread on hotels.
This idea of cross-posting isn't new. Last time it was suggested, we were told it's not technically possible on FT that runs on the vBulletin software platform.
Sep 21, 2012, 8:31 pm
#183
Join Date: May 2009
Programs: AC
Posts: 187
Don't think this is the case.
Blogs seem to offer recent relevant info...
Different beast altogether
Blogs seem to offer recent relevant info...
Different beast altogether
Oct 12, 2012, 2:53 am
#184
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NAP
Programs: LH, BA, TK
Posts: 2,409
Blog is one to multitude, FT is an arena in which, hopefully, everyone should feel free to contribute without being bulled or subtly criticized.
Many tend to forget that partecipants are not ALL native english speakers, therefore the dialectic is not necessarily sharp as others, leading in some case to frustration and misunderstanding.
It is an additional efford for the pleasure to contribute and give back a part of the big amount we get.
That said, personally, I found FT the only place on web worth the enrollement, spending my time a feeling proud to have joined in a great community.
Many tend to forget that partecipants are not ALL native english speakers, therefore the dialectic is not necessarily sharp as others, leading in some case to frustration and misunderstanding.
It is an additional efford for the pleasure to contribute and give back a part of the big amount we get.
That said, personally, I found FT the only place on web worth the enrollement, spending my time a feeling proud to have joined in a great community.
Oct 16, 2012, 4:58 pm
#185
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
Off topic: Forrest Bump - haw! ^
Anyway, you make some good points - about 40% of FlyerTalkers are international / not USA registered, according to Internet Brands. This is a major change since the days when some of us signed up, and it would seem to be a continuing trend.
We are truly an international community - but even those who speak English use different words and context, e.g. using "entrée" for the main dish, is peculiarly American, and there are many differences in language use among English, Americans, Canadians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Australians, etc.
Anyway, you make some good points - about 40% of FlyerTalkers are international / not USA registered, according to Internet Brands. This is a major change since the days when some of us signed up, and it would seem to be a continuing trend.
We are truly an international community - but even those who speak English use different words and context, e.g. using "entrée" for the main dish, is peculiarly American, and there are many differences in language use among English, Americans, Canadians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Australians, etc.
Blog is one to multitude, FT is an arena in which, hopefully, everyone should feel free to contribute without being bulled or subtly criticized.
Many tend to forget that partecipants are not ALL native english speakers, therefore the dialectic is not necessarily sharp as others, leading in some case to frustration and misunderstanding.
It is an additional efford for the pleasure to contribute and give back a part of the big amount we get.
That said, personally, I found FT the only place on web worth the enrollement, spending my time a feeling proud to have joined in a great community.
Many tend to forget that partecipants are not ALL native english speakers, therefore the dialectic is not necessarily sharp as others, leading in some case to frustration and misunderstanding.
It is an additional efford for the pleasure to contribute and give back a part of the big amount we get.
That said, personally, I found FT the only place on web worth the enrollement, spending my time a feeling proud to have joined in a great community.
Oct 16, 2012, 8:11 pm
#186
Moderator: Hilton Honors forums
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
Posts: 24,997
Oct 17, 2012, 7:51 am
#187
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SIN
Programs: JL GC | Marriott LT Silver | Global Entry | SQ Silver
Posts: 6,819
Singapore's english is very short and sharp. 
Oct 26, 2012, 1:47 am
#188
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,194
That nice---but I have a life.....Id rather have some sticky constantly being updated with new information. For example on the MArriott hotel thread for rate codes...its upteen pages long but the intital page for 8 yrs or so ago has not been updated. It would be nice to have a first page posting of the new codes.
Instead of expecting people to read 400 page threads and acting elitist when they dont have time to do so perhaps a better solution is to increase the use of stickies and/or FAQs/updated posts on the first page. This would allow people like me to get up the curve on what is already known a lot faster and without dealing with people who think they're gods because they know how to apply for credit cards in a slightly better way and then we can start contributing a lot sooner.
Someone here mentioned that threads should have stickies or some updates done to the first post or something. Well, that's a grande idea, but who has to do that work? The OP? Some secret person? A Moderator? Oh sure, some may feel compelled to do such work and in many cases it makes things better for them as well, or they just love making lists, but it's a ton of work and we are lucky when it's done. But it should not be 'expected' all the time, now should it? So how much are we going to pay that person to constantly make and update such lists, or hope that they have the free time to do that for us?
I think the Quarterly rental car thread is a good example of this. Kudos to the Op and others who always update that long and well crafted list of all the clickable codes and information. I mean, that is just plain awesome. But man oh man I sure hope everyone who uses that thread appreciates the people typing those in. I certainly do but how can I even show it? I guess I try to show it by being helpful in areas in FT where I know things and can help others. Again that brings us back to the mentality I try to have here as mentioned in my first paragraph. But seriously, when it comes to these lists and codes on the first page of some long thread, how much work and time did it take for them to type it all for me? Should we all do our part in 'paying back' by at the very least READING the thread or as much of it as we can in order to gain other updates?
I think the Quarterly rental car thread is a good example of this. Kudos to the Op and others who always update that long and well crafted list of all the clickable codes and information. I mean, that is just plain awesome. But man oh man I sure hope everyone who uses that thread appreciates the people typing those in. I certainly do but how can I even show it? I guess I try to show it by being helpful in areas in FT where I know things and can help others. Again that brings us back to the mentality I try to have here as mentioned in my first paragraph. But seriously, when it comes to these lists and codes on the first page of some long thread, how much work and time did it take for them to type it all for me? Should we all do our part in 'paying back' by at the very least READING the thread or as much of it as we can in order to gain other updates?
(I know you're not reading this thread anymore, but I just wanted to thank you for your insights on this subject and your salient contributions to this thread. Good perspective all around.)But to further discussion in areas that are relevant, perhaps, ANYONE can offer to volunteer themselves to maintain a thread and keep an updated OP; a few members in fact do that, and they are highly valued. Others volunteer their time and energy as Ambassadors or Moderators - in addition to living a life, working, travelling, etc. etc. (Ambassadors welcome new members, assist members in their fora and share knowledge, provide direction to their fora and when necessary contact moderators for some of the technical and other things moderators have tools to accomplish; Moderators try to welcome new members, they respond to "AMPs", provide some direction and organization to their fora, and delete an amazing amount of spam most members never see, protect members' privacy and do a lot of communicating and guidance with members experiencing difficulties of various kinds, among other duties, just FYI here); many others actively establish and maintain code posts, etc. according to their areas of interest or / and expertise.
IMO, it's always easy to say "let George do it" or "let's volunteer the other guy", "make the mods work harder" or even "let the mods do their job and whack snarky posters", but the crux of a community such as this is the idea that it is a community, and as such everyone should in some ways support the community ethos through their comportment (posting), much as communities endeavour to establish rules and signage for smooth traffic flow and accident reduction. As members of the FlyerTalk community, we establish the culture through our actions.
FlyerTalk is admittedly an imperfect community - limited to some degree by software and format, as well as the energies, limitations and posting behaviors imposed by member participation. It is now owned and operated by a for-profit enterprise, Internet Brands, which also has limited resources and "pockets". So, how do we improve it, and in particular, how do we improve "attitude" (culture) to retain those who are looking for such a community (and not everyone is)?
Want more volunteers to step up and maintain posts / threads? Want people to be more civil and welcoming in their posts? Step up and model what you say you want. Nobody is excluded from doing this.
IMO, it's always easy to say "let George do it" or "let's volunteer the other guy", "make the mods work harder" or even "let the mods do their job and whack snarky posters", but the crux of a community such as this is the idea that it is a community, and as such everyone should in some ways support the community ethos through their comportment (posting), much as communities endeavour to establish rules and signage for smooth traffic flow and accident reduction. As members of the FlyerTalk community, we establish the culture through our actions.
FlyerTalk is admittedly an imperfect community - limited to some degree by software and format, as well as the energies, limitations and posting behaviors imposed by member participation. It is now owned and operated by a for-profit enterprise, Internet Brands, which also has limited resources and "pockets". So, how do we improve it, and in particular, how do we improve "attitude" (culture) to retain those who are looking for such a community (and not everyone is)?
Want more volunteers to step up and maintain posts / threads? Want people to be more civil and welcoming in their posts? Step up and model what you say you want. Nobody is excluded from doing this.
NOw, all of the above said, there may be some changes coming down the pike that may make it a great deal easier to do what the posters above are asking to be done.
Someone said wiki's were off topic for this thread and I disagree. Wikis would be an ideal solution to the problem outlined above but I think the attitude plays into the resistance to implementing it. I'm thinking some on this board want it to be hard to get at data for a few reasons. It may keep deals alive longer (which is why some of them hate blogs), they have always had to spend hours reading and so should everyone else, they feel special for having certain knowledge, etc.
As to who would do the actual editing I'm not sure why people think this would be an issue. The entire board is based on people giving information
As to who would do the actual editing I'm not sure why people think this would be an issue. The entire board is based on people giving information
Let me preface the next quote/response with a reminder from Canarsie:
FlyerTalk members are free to discuss moderation in general.
However, the Guidelines & Rules of FlyerTalk prohibits the discussion of specific moderator actions:
However, the Guidelines & Rules of FlyerTalk prohibits the discussion of specific moderator actions:
We're seeing some of the snarkiness on the AA forum. With an influx of UA flyers comped in at EXP, there's some new threads that veteran AA posters think should be added to prior threads on the topic, or not posted at all because the topics are covered in the wiki. You won't see me complaining because I could care less and can just bypass threads I'm not interested in, but it does seem to grab some attention on that forum and compel veterans to offer their comments. Mind you these are not new FTers that are starting these threads, but FTers that have been around for a while and are just new to the AA forum.
Still comes down to moderation. If the moderators see a problem, they deal with it. If you have a complaint about a poster, notify a moderator. If you're not happy there, onto the Community Director. Nothing for the Talk Board to get involved with and I can't see a need for any policy changes.
Still comes down to moderation. If the moderators see a problem, they deal with it. If you have a complaint about a poster, notify a moderator. If you're not happy there, onto the Community Director. Nothing for the Talk Board to get involved with and I can't see a need for any policy changes.
There's little point to actually "drive the newbies off" though, because their still going to lurk. Personally, I'd try to "sandbox" a Q&A board where people can ask the same dozen questions over and over again and whoever is feeling benevolent that day can throw a few bones to them (us?).
I would think this thread fits tcook052's description quite well: OP's failure to "invest" effort results in lack of responses from FT community. Over the years I've been on FT, I'd seen a fair share of newbies like this.
The AA forum has a "newbie" thread for new members to ask their questions without getting slammed. I believe one of the hotel forums was first to test out a newbie thread. It's certainly a concept that could be used across all the busier forums of FT. As it involves moderation, though, not sure it's a topic the Talk Board can really get involved with.
I actually don't believe FT "attitude" is the reason some people choose blogs over FT. Instead, I believe people read blogs because they are simply more user friendly to use than FT is. You can quickly read several blog articles without having to dig through lots and lots of posts on FT to find the content you're looking for. The FT user interface also leaves much to desire. It is ugly, outdated, and hard to find information. Blogs look pretty, modern, and are easy to find information.
If the FT forums looked and operated more like http://slickdeals.net/forums/ , the user community would grow.
If the FT forums looked and operated more like http://slickdeals.net/forums/ , the user community would grow.
However, when I pushed the tech guys, they asked me if the "antiquatedness" of the site is simply in the site's look or if it is in the site's function. I said a bit of both. I am curious, though, as to the wider FT community's perspective on this issue. It'd be a bit OT for this thread, but I'd like to have that discussion: what specifically needs to be "modernized" about FT?
Except for two ideas--wikis and having moderators be a bit more vigilant about deleting snarky "do a search" posts and dealing with the posters who post the same (something not within TalkBoard's mandate but something that is worth discussing, IMHO)--I really haven't seen any specific proposals; certainly none that restrict speech in any way.
Oct 27, 2012, 7:59 pm
#189
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
One thing I think will help are the new WikiPosts, already being tested in two fora (American AAdvantage and Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan). As they are in Beta, the mods are the ones creating and updating them, but eventually they will become community property.
For example, in the American AAdvantage Forum, the moderators have often inserted and kept up to date "moderator notes" summarizing the contents of a large, frequently posted, thread. Now a WikiPost can be inserted between the thread header and the first post with succinct information and links; they can easily be updated, much as the FlyerGuide Wiki can, and as the Wiki anyone will eventually be able to do the updating.
My understanding is it took some significant work to create these, but now that we have seen the first of them we'll see how the Beta testing goes and eventually spreading to other fora.
(One initial and brief one is in the new AA "Main Cabin Extra" extended seat pitch product thread here - simple, but gives people the link they need to see AA's current accommodation policy.)
For example, in the American AAdvantage Forum, the moderators have often inserted and kept up to date "moderator notes" summarizing the contents of a large, frequently posted, thread. Now a WikiPost can be inserted between the thread header and the first post with succinct information and links; they can easily be updated, much as the FlyerGuide Wiki can, and as the Wiki anyone will eventually be able to do the updating.
My understanding is it took some significant work to create these, but now that we have seen the first of them we'll see how the Beta testing goes and eventually spreading to other fora.
(One initial and brief one is in the new AA "Main Cabin Extra" extended seat pitch product thread here - simple, but gives people the link they need to see AA's current accommodation policy.)
Last edited by JDiver; Oct 27, 2012 at 8:27 pm