Can the TB revisit the Commercial links in Signatures issue?
Jul 30, 2012, 2:02 pm
#151
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That was pretty well discussed here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...l-venture.html
From that (and other!) thread the notion of a commercial forum came up where posters could go in and get commercial to their heart's desires. But keep it in there, like we keep the politics in OMNI/PR.
From that (and other!) thread the notion of a commercial forum came up where posters could go in and get commercial to their heart's desires. But keep it in there, like we keep the politics in OMNI/PR.
This discussion might be more apropos to your support for a separate commercial for-profit forum on FlyerTalk.
For example, I have no idea what you do for a living or a profession. What if I need a product or service which you offer? Would it not make sense for me to patronize your business or the company of which you are employed and support you over someone whom I do not know or about whom I have not even heard? Would it not make sense to strengthen the overall “economy” of the FlyerTalk community by patronizing each other, resulting in more trips for more FlyerTalk members due to increased income?
Similarly, I believe that applying that concept to signatures could — not yet definitively will — be helpful for all of us.
Jul 30, 2012, 2:05 pm
#152
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As the OP of this thread, I think it turned into something else than what I was asking about. Here's my original post:
I made no mention of wanting to see no links at all in signatures.
I'm beginning to think that commercial links, as well as referral links, affiliate links, and links to blogs that contain affiliate links has gotten out of hand. I'm starting to see them all over the place in the forums I visit.
This is no more than free advertising and/or trolling for new business. FT is now for-profit, and if any entity is going to make money on FT members, well, IMHO, it should be FT itself, or at least a charity that FT supports.
There was a time when signatures could not contain any commercial link, and I was told this was changed several years ago, and I must have missed the discussion about it.
This is no more than free advertising and/or trolling for new business. FT is now for-profit, and if any entity is going to make money on FT members, well, IMHO, it should be FT itself, or at least a charity that FT supports.
There was a time when signatures could not contain any commercial link, and I was told this was changed several years ago, and I must have missed the discussion about it.
Jul 30, 2012, 2:24 pm
#153
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From my perspective, it is not so much to allow FlyerTalk members to “get commercial to their heart’s desires.” Rather, it is about supporting each other as a true community outside of FlyerTalk as well as within FlyerTalk.
This discussion might be more apropos to your support for a separate commercial for-profit forum on FlyerTalk.
For example, I have no idea what you do for a living or a profession. What if I need a product or service which you offer? Would it not make sense for me to patronize your business or the company of which you are employed and support you over someone whom I do not know or about whom I have not even heard? Would it not make sense to strengthen the overall “economy” of the FlyerTalk community by patronizing each other, resulting in more trips for more FlyerTalk members due to increased income?
Similarly, I believe that applying that concept to signatures could — not yet definitively will — be helpful for all of us.
This discussion might be more apropos to your support for a separate commercial for-profit forum on FlyerTalk.
For example, I have no idea what you do for a living or a profession. What if I need a product or service which you offer? Would it not make sense for me to patronize your business or the company of which you are employed and support you over someone whom I do not know or about whom I have not even heard? Would it not make sense to strengthen the overall “economy” of the FlyerTalk community by patronizing each other, resulting in more trips for more FlyerTalk members due to increased income?
Similarly, I believe that applying that concept to signatures could — not yet definitively will — be helpful for all of us.
I think it is an idea whose time has come, now that the travel tools forum has shown how successful FT can be at meeting the commercial...for both FT customer and the FT member venture!
And to Mary's OP, it give a place for those commercial to live and breath, rather than being stuck opaquely in sigs.
Jul 30, 2012, 2:29 pm
#154
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I agree with having a commercial area. But that still won't take care of referral links and links to personal businesses, etc. We still need rules for them 
Jul 30, 2012, 2:43 pm
#155
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Originally Posted by kokonutz
With the sole guide being: what is in the best interest of the posters, I think it makes sense to apply the same TOS to sigs as we do to posts, whatever those TOS may be.
So if we are going to ban on commercial links in sigs, we ought to do so in the body of posts as well. And vice-versa. To do otherwise is illogical and breeds confusion.
So if we are going to ban on commercial links in sigs, we ought to do so in the body of posts as well. And vice-versa. To do otherwise is illogical and breeds confusion.
That's not really a benefit.
And there isn't really a reason why logic is good here. There's a very clear downside to commercial links in posts which does not exist for signatures. But enforcing signatures to the standards of posts does carry a down side in that it's been tried, and it doesn't work well. So we still need to say 'what is the benefit for preventing commercial links in signatures which is greater than the cost involved in policing them'?
The downside to allowing commericial posts is that we can't stop spam - in fact, you might as well label koko's suggested 'commercial forum' to 'post your mobile phone prices and pharmaceuticals here' because it sounds like a spammers heaven. Would certainly give us a place to move all the spam threads to. Non mods don't get to see spam - mods can. There are also other measures taken behind the scenes to try and prevent some spam even getting to the point where mods see it.
So I realise that non-mods might not realise how often FT does get hit by spammers. It's actually quite a lot, and any 'commercial forum' would have to have rules written carefully to either allow that (if that is the intent) or disallow it (if the person suggesting such an idea had forgotten about spam).
I'm not in favour of a commercial forum. I think it will create problems and it's a distraction from the fact that we are forum for travellers.
Commercial links in posts are generally the sole reason why the post was made. There's no value to other members of FT, someone is just trying to flog something. So most members find them annoying.
Commercial links in signatures are only allowed once a member is established on the board. Signature spammers used to be a big problem, and a large amount of time was taken up hunting and killing them, hence the change in rules to prevent sig spam. As a result, people posting commercial signatures are generally long time members, whose posts are contributing to FT and the other members are getting something out of those posts, regardless of the commercial link which is not the point of the post - just a by product.
And that's the difference between a commerical post - spam - and a commercial signature and why the rules are different between the two. Because the differences for them appearing on FT are different.
But you'd try to treat them the same way, for no good reason other than your sense of propriety is offended. It's not good. That's not a good reason to act, particularly when you are asking others to shoulder a burden on behalf of your sense of propriety.
Please do explain to me what the benefit is of banning commerical links in signatures. Why is it in the best interests of the members to do so? Given so many seem so wedded to the idea, I'd have thought that was a simple question to answer?
Surely you wouldn't try to act unless you can annunciate a benefit for doing so? Who knew a TB could be so capricious?
Jul 30, 2012, 2:43 pm
#156
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Jul 30, 2012, 2:45 pm
#157
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- Proactively contributes to the community, and
- Clearly disclaims that the link in the signature is a referral link
As for links to personal businesses...
For example, I have no idea what you do for a living or a profession. What if I need a product or service which you offer? Would it not make sense for me to patronize your business or the company of which you are employed and support you over someone whom I do not know or about whom I have not even heard? Would it not make sense to strengthen the overall “economy” of the FlyerTalk community by patronizing each other, resulting in more trips for more FlyerTalk members due to increased income?
Similarly, I believe that applying that concept to signatures could — not yet definitively will — be helpful for all of us.
Similarly, I believe that applying that concept to signatures could — not yet definitively will — be helpful for all of us.
Jul 30, 2012, 3:19 pm
#158
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So you cannot actually identify a benefit except it's illogical.
That's not really a benefit.
And there isn't really a reason why logic is good here. There's a very clear downside to commercial links in posts which does not exist for signatures. But enforcing signatures to the standards of posts does carry a down side in that it's been tried, and it doesn't work well. So we still need to say 'what is the benefit for preventing commercial links in signatures which is greater than the cost involved in policing them'?
The downside to allowing commericial posts is that we can't stop spam - in fact, you might as well label koko's suggested 'commercial forum' to 'post your mobile phone prices and pharmaceuticals here' because it sounds like a spammers heaven. Would certainly give us a place to move all the spam threads to. Non mods don't get to see spam - mods can. There are also other measures taken behind the scenes to try and prevent some spam even getting to the point where mods see it.
So I realise that non-mods might not realise how often FT does get hit by spammers. It's actually quite a lot, and any 'commercial forum' would have to have rules written carefully to either allow that (if that is the intent) or disallow it (if the person suggesting such an idea had forgotten about spam).
I'm not in favour of a commercial forum. I think it will create problems and it's a distraction from the fact that we are forum for travellers.
Commercial links in posts are generally the sole reason why the post was made. There's no value to other members of FT, someone is just trying to flog something. So most members find them annoying.
Commercial links in signatures are only allowed once a member is established on the board. Signature spammers used to be a big problem, and a large amount of time was taken up hunting and killing them, hence the change in rules to prevent sig spam. As a result, people posting commercial signatures are generally long time members, whose posts are contributing to FT and the other members are getting something out of those posts, regardless of the commercial link which is not the point of the post - just a by product.
And that's the difference between a commerical post - spam - and a commercial signature and why the rules are different between the two. Because the differences for them appearing on FT are different.
But you'd try to treat them the same way, for no good reason other than your sense of propriety is offended. It's not good. That's not a good reason to act, particularly when you are asking others to shoulder a burden on behalf of your sense of propriety.
Please do explain to me what the benefit is of banning commerical links in signatures. Why is it in the best interests of the members to do so? Given so many seem so wedded to the idea, I'd have thought that was a simple question to answer? Surely you wouldn't try to act unless you can annunciate a benefit for doing so? Who knew a TB could be so capricious?
That's not really a benefit.
And there isn't really a reason why logic is good here. There's a very clear downside to commercial links in posts which does not exist for signatures. But enforcing signatures to the standards of posts does carry a down side in that it's been tried, and it doesn't work well. So we still need to say 'what is the benefit for preventing commercial links in signatures which is greater than the cost involved in policing them'?
The downside to allowing commericial posts is that we can't stop spam - in fact, you might as well label koko's suggested 'commercial forum' to 'post your mobile phone prices and pharmaceuticals here' because it sounds like a spammers heaven. Would certainly give us a place to move all the spam threads to. Non mods don't get to see spam - mods can. There are also other measures taken behind the scenes to try and prevent some spam even getting to the point where mods see it.
So I realise that non-mods might not realise how often FT does get hit by spammers. It's actually quite a lot, and any 'commercial forum' would have to have rules written carefully to either allow that (if that is the intent) or disallow it (if the person suggesting such an idea had forgotten about spam).
I'm not in favour of a commercial forum. I think it will create problems and it's a distraction from the fact that we are forum for travellers.
Commercial links in posts are generally the sole reason why the post was made. There's no value to other members of FT, someone is just trying to flog something. So most members find them annoying.
Commercial links in signatures are only allowed once a member is established on the board. Signature spammers used to be a big problem, and a large amount of time was taken up hunting and killing them, hence the change in rules to prevent sig spam. As a result, people posting commercial signatures are generally long time members, whose posts are contributing to FT and the other members are getting something out of those posts, regardless of the commercial link which is not the point of the post - just a by product.
And that's the difference between a commerical post - spam - and a commercial signature and why the rules are different between the two. Because the differences for them appearing on FT are different.
But you'd try to treat them the same way, for no good reason other than your sense of propriety is offended. It's not good. That's not a good reason to act, particularly when you are asking others to shoulder a burden on behalf of your sense of propriety.
Please do explain to me what the benefit is of banning commerical links in signatures. Why is it in the best interests of the members to do so? Given so many seem so wedded to the idea, I'd have thought that was a simple question to answer?
Surely you wouldn't try to act unless you can annunciate a benefit for doing so? Who knew a TB could be so capricious? 
What is being suggested here is a place where real FTers, with a posting history similar to that needed to gain entry to coupon connection, could create a commercial community to go along with the other off topic but community building aspects of OMNI, etc. Hey, why not buy sell my used mobile to another FTer?! Why not buy stamps from Ozstamps? Why not buy wine from Gaucho?
I'm done debating the hows and whys of current practice. IMHO, it was done in an ad hoc and non-transparent way. And it seems rather arbitrary. The way you describe it makes it seem as though moderators have infinite discretion in deciding if someone is a long time member or contributing member, or if their commercial link is the point of the commercial link or a by-product of it.
So to me it is much more interesting to me to start with a clean slate and decide what is in the best interest of FTers, then make that happen.
And to me, best practices are typically simple and consistent. I would think that any moderator would agree with that notion, as simple and consistent practices are the easiest to enforce.
As you say, FT is primarily about sharing travel information altruistically, so keeping sigs on-topic related to travel or personal (like a quote, etc), non-commercial, non-political and in conformance with the TOS seems like a simple and consistent best practice.
Giving posters a forum to flog their books or plumbing skillz or their drop shipping web site seems to me like a good way to build community. Yes, rules to keep spam out will be required. But with post minimum to play, that is easily overcome.
There is no reason that FTers cannot have their cake (tos enforcement applied consistently) and eat it too (have a proper and well defined place to be commercial with each other, provide commercial links, etc).
And mods can tell those who wish to be commercial in their sigs or posts or profiles or anywhere else that such activity is welcome on FT, but only in the proper forum.
Last edited by kokonutz; Jul 30, 2012 at 3:30 pm
Jul 30, 2012, 3:29 pm
#159
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Thank you in advance.
Jul 30, 2012, 3:32 pm
#160
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So that we respect the original purpose of this discussion and not further detract from the original topic, may we please continue the discussion of a commercial forum on FlyerTalk here?
Thank you in advance.
Thank you in advance.
Perhaps a new thread addressing both topics!?
Jul 30, 2012, 3:38 pm
#161
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Jul 30, 2012, 4:02 pm
#162
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Originally Posted by koko
And to me, best practices are typically simple and consistent. I would think that any moderator would agree with that notion, as simple and consistent practices are the easiest to enforce.
I really must ask again - what is the benefit in banning commercial signatures?
Jul 30, 2012, 4:17 pm
#163
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Not always, this would be a perfect example of one which is not. Or to look at it another way, it's been made simpler by removing commerical signatures as something which is not allowed. If we are saying something that is simpler is better, then stopping mods have to define what is and is not 'commercial' - itself a grey area with considerable debate at times - is better if the commercial signatures are not causing a problem. And since only a very few people are seeing problems (which apparently are as undefinable as the benefits of banning them) then it seems like commercial sigs are not a problem.
I really must ask again - what is the benefit in banning commercial signatures?
I really must ask again - what is the benefit in banning commercial signatures?
FT's core function is points, miles and travel.
We keep it that way by letting folks go off topic (and somewhat off-TOS) in specific forums. This proposal (creating a commercial forum but enforcing the TOS in sigs) follows that model.
Jul 30, 2012, 8:17 pm
#164
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No one wants a spam forum. That is silly. Now a SPAM forum, sure.
What is being suggested here is a place where real FTers, with a posting history similar to that needed to gain entry to coupon connection, could create a commercial community to go along with the other off topic but community building aspects of OMNI, etc. Hey, why not buy sell my used mobile to another FTer?! Why not buy stamps from Ozstamps? Why not buy wine from Gaucho?
I'm done debating the hows and whys of current practice. IMHO, it was done in an ad hoc and non-transparent way. And it seems rather arbitrary. The way you describe it makes it seem as though moderators have infinite discretion in deciding if someone is a long time member or contributing member, or if their commercial link is the point of the commercial link or a by-product of it.
So to me it is much more interesting to me to start with a clean slate and decide what is in the best interest of FTers, then make that happen.
And to me, best practices are typically simple and consistent. I would think that any moderator would agree with that notion, as simple and consistent practices are the easiest to enforce.
As you say, FT is primarily about sharing travel information altruistically, so keeping sigs on-topic related to travel or personal (like a quote, etc), non-commercial, non-political and in conformance with the TOS seems like a simple and consistent best practice.
Giving posters a forum to flog their books or plumbing skillz or their drop shipping web site seems to me like a good way to build community. Yes, rules to keep spam out will be required. But with post minimum to play, that is easily overcome.
There is no reason that FTers cannot have their cake (tos enforcement applied consistently) and eat it too (have a proper and well defined place to be commercial with each other, provide commercial links, etc).
And mods can tell those who wish to be commercial in their sigs or posts or profiles or anywhere else that such activity is welcome on FT, but only in the proper forum.
What is being suggested here is a place where real FTers, with a posting history similar to that needed to gain entry to coupon connection, could create a commercial community to go along with the other off topic but community building aspects of OMNI, etc. Hey, why not buy sell my used mobile to another FTer?! Why not buy stamps from Ozstamps? Why not buy wine from Gaucho?
I'm done debating the hows and whys of current practice. IMHO, it was done in an ad hoc and non-transparent way. And it seems rather arbitrary. The way you describe it makes it seem as though moderators have infinite discretion in deciding if someone is a long time member or contributing member, or if their commercial link is the point of the commercial link or a by-product of it.
So to me it is much more interesting to me to start with a clean slate and decide what is in the best interest of FTers, then make that happen.
And to me, best practices are typically simple and consistent. I would think that any moderator would agree with that notion, as simple and consistent practices are the easiest to enforce.
As you say, FT is primarily about sharing travel information altruistically, so keeping sigs on-topic related to travel or personal (like a quote, etc), non-commercial, non-political and in conformance with the TOS seems like a simple and consistent best practice.
Giving posters a forum to flog their books or plumbing skillz or their drop shipping web site seems to me like a good way to build community. Yes, rules to keep spam out will be required. But with post minimum to play, that is easily overcome.
There is no reason that FTers cannot have their cake (tos enforcement applied consistently) and eat it too (have a proper and well defined place to be commercial with each other, provide commercial links, etc).
And mods can tell those who wish to be commercial in their sigs or posts or profiles or anywhere else that such activity is welcome on FT, but only in the proper forum.
Jul 30, 2012, 11:00 pm
#165
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