Who writes the Coupon Connection 'TOS?' They need some work.
Jan 17, 2012, 8:34 am
#1
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Who writes the Coupon Connection 'TOS?' They need some work.
I was giving away some SWUs on CC today and noticed the TOS sticky at the top of that forum for the first time.
It's an overly long mish-mash of precedents, thoughts, ramblings and vague notions, along with a bit of clear direction.
Seems like they need some work. Is this a job for the TB?
It's an overly long mish-mash of precedents, thoughts, ramblings and vague notions, along with a bit of clear direction.
Seems like they need some work. Is this a job for the TB?
Jan 17, 2012, 8:40 am
#2
Flyertalk Evangelist and Moderator: Coupon Connection and Travel Products
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The CC TOS has always been under the purvue of the CC moderators and the Community Director.
We have made many updates to that document over the year; much based on member input.
It has seemed to work over the years except in cases where people have chosen to not read... or ignore the rules.
Feel free to reach out to Spiff and I with any suggestions.
We have made many updates to that document over the year; much based on member input.
It has seemed to work over the years except in cases where people have chosen to not read... or ignore the rules.
Feel free to reach out to Spiff and I with any suggestions.
Jan 17, 2012, 9:16 am
#3
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Should the rules of CC fall under moderators or TalkBoard? Based on that answer, I think you have who should revise the TOS of CC.
Jan 17, 2012, 9:17 am
#4
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Please correct me if I am wrong.
I see FT TOS and CC TOS is outside TB purview. Although I disagree on the principle.
Revisions to FT TOS are done by the mod group combined, allowing free and broad internal discussion.
However it seems to me that CC TOS are under the purview of CC mods alone, with the signature of CD.
What I experience by member input is that this ONLY is used to constantly limit CC. There is no debate on whats good for the community, and its upto a very few people only.
If a specific moderator is very restrictive, this will thus not only be reflected in any practice- maybe at times without even basis in TOS, but also to revisions of TOS itself. This is a general comment whatever you want to put in it, but the same would be with the example of a very liberal mod.
If a moderator stays for too long there, s/he will have his own forum within the forum, ala ORP. I do not think its to the best of the community, not developing such a sub forum in a more open way, be it TB, discussion threads, or even using the same approach as FT TOS revision- if that include proper member feedback.
I see FT TOS and CC TOS is outside TB purview. Although I disagree on the principle.
Revisions to FT TOS are done by the mod group combined, allowing free and broad internal discussion.
However it seems to me that CC TOS are under the purview of CC mods alone, with the signature of CD.
What I experience by member input is that this ONLY is used to constantly limit CC. There is no debate on whats good for the community, and its upto a very few people only.
If a specific moderator is very restrictive, this will thus not only be reflected in any practice- maybe at times without even basis in TOS, but also to revisions of TOS itself. This is a general comment whatever you want to put in it, but the same would be with the example of a very liberal mod.
If a moderator stays for too long there, s/he will have his own forum within the forum, ala ORP. I do not think its to the best of the community, not developing such a sub forum in a more open way, be it TB, discussion threads, or even using the same approach as FT TOS revision- if that include proper member feedback.
Jan 17, 2012, 9:20 am
#5
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CC mods will still use FT TOS on CC, and still they are not under TB purview.
Jan 17, 2012, 9:54 am
#6
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At the risk of getting lectured about purview, I am curious to know how much moderation goes on in that forum.
I ask because after taking the time to read that TOS, I am left with only a vague notion of what's kosher and what is not, and I am wondering if there is a lot of deletion of offers/trades that don't make the CCTOS cut and/or disciplinary action for same, of if there is only a little bit of moderation needed in that forum.
If the former, then perhaps a major overhaul of the TOS is in order. If the latter, perhaps just a little bit of better organization and editing.
I ask because after taking the time to read that TOS, I am left with only a vague notion of what's kosher and what is not, and I am wondering if there is a lot of deletion of offers/trades that don't make the CCTOS cut and/or disciplinary action for same, of if there is only a little bit of moderation needed in that forum.
If the former, then perhaps a major overhaul of the TOS is in order. If the latter, perhaps just a little bit of better organization and editing.
Jan 17, 2012, 9:59 am
#7
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At the risk of getting lectured about purview, I am curious to know how much moderation goes on in that forum.
I ask because after taking the time to read that TOS, I am left with only a vague notion of what's kosher and what is not, and I am wondering if there is a lot of deletion of offers/trades that don't make the CCTOS cut and/or disciplinary action for same, of if there is only a little bit of moderation needed in that forum.
If the former, then perhaps a major overhaul of the TOS is in order. If the latter, perhaps just a little bit of better organization and editing.
I ask because after taking the time to read that TOS, I am left with only a vague notion of what's kosher and what is not, and I am wondering if there is a lot of deletion of offers/trades that don't make the CCTOS cut and/or disciplinary action for same, of if there is only a little bit of moderation needed in that forum.
If the former, then perhaps a major overhaul of the TOS is in order. If the latter, perhaps just a little bit of better organization and editing.
Jan 17, 2012, 10:04 am
#8
Flyertalk Evangelist and Moderator: Coupon Connection and Travel Products
Join Date: Jul 2000
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While not wanting to get in all the details and Spiff may slap me for saying this, there is a bit of moderation there, but usually because people have chosen to ignore/not read the CC TOS or just do not agree.
Some examples:
1. We still get posts offering/requesting gift cards... and they have not been allowed for over two years... and was well publicized over FT.
2. People trying to "profit" from transactions... our members do a pretty good job of "moderating" others when this happens, but we have to get involved as well.
3. Not following posting rules: members have made it very clear that they do not like to see lots of posts from the same members. We have a few rules: Do not start a new thread if you have already offered/requested the same item... bump it. Also, do not bump more than every five days. However, some members continue to believe that they do not have to abide by those rules... our members do know how to use that Report Bad Post button!
4. Dealing with people who "live" in Coupon Connection. Some members work to get access to the forum and then cease/limit their involvement in the FT community outside of CC. We have made it clear that is an easy way to get your CC access revoked. We spend a great deal of time researching posting history.
5. Dealing with people who have a trade issue. Usually one person decides to not follow through on their agreement... or the trading terms are not clear.
These are just a few examples... but in all cases, the CC TOS is very clear on these issues. Most people just do not read or choose to not adhere to the rules.
But, I can say that over 99% of the people who visit Coupon Connection never hear from us other than general announcements. And I have to say, the CC community is pretty good about looking after each other.
Some examples:
1. We still get posts offering/requesting gift cards... and they have not been allowed for over two years... and was well publicized over FT.
2. People trying to "profit" from transactions... our members do a pretty good job of "moderating" others when this happens, but we have to get involved as well.
3. Not following posting rules: members have made it very clear that they do not like to see lots of posts from the same members. We have a few rules: Do not start a new thread if you have already offered/requested the same item... bump it. Also, do not bump more than every five days. However, some members continue to believe that they do not have to abide by those rules... our members do know how to use that Report Bad Post button!
4. Dealing with people who "live" in Coupon Connection. Some members work to get access to the forum and then cease/limit their involvement in the FT community outside of CC. We have made it clear that is an easy way to get your CC access revoked. We spend a great deal of time researching posting history.
5. Dealing with people who have a trade issue. Usually one person decides to not follow through on their agreement... or the trading terms are not clear.
These are just a few examples... but in all cases, the CC TOS is very clear on these issues. Most people just do not read or choose to not adhere to the rules.
But, I can say that over 99% of the people who visit Coupon Connection never hear from us other than general announcements. And I have to say, the CC community is pretty good about looking after each other.
Jan 17, 2012, 10:13 am
#9
Flyertalk Evangelist and Moderator: Coupon Connection and Travel Products
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I believe the issue is that members come to CC and do not read the rules before they start "trading" and participating.
I almost wish there was a way to have a "waiting" period where we could ensure members read the CC TOS before they were ever able to participate. Unfortunately, was told a few years ago there was no way to do that with our current platform.
Usually, people just dont agree with the rules... and believe that is reason enough to not follow them.... but again, over 99% of the members have no difficulty playing by the rules.
I am constantly amazed by the generosity of the community at times. I know that I have given away (nothing in return) at least 14 United SWU's over the year. But I also get disappointed at members who try to sell for cash or profit from trades.
I almost wish there was a way to have a "waiting" period where we could ensure members read the CC TOS before they were ever able to participate. Unfortunately, was told a few years ago there was no way to do that with our current platform.
Usually, people just dont agree with the rules... and believe that is reason enough to not follow them.... but again, over 99% of the members have no difficulty playing by the rules.
I am constantly amazed by the generosity of the community at times. I know that I have given away (nothing in return) at least 14 United SWU's over the year. But I also get disappointed at members who try to sell for cash or profit from trades.
Jan 17, 2012, 1:11 pm
#10
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I believe the issue is that members come to CC and do not read the rules before they start "trading" and participating.
I almost wish there was a way to have a "waiting" period where we could ensure members read the CC TOS before they were ever able to participate. Unfortunately, was told a few years ago there was no way to do that with our current platform.
Usually, people just dont agree with the rules... and believe that is reason enough to not follow them.... but again, over 99% of the members have no difficulty playing by the rules.
I am constantly amazed by the generosity of the community at times. I know that I have given away (nothing in return) at least 14 United SWU's over the year. But I also get disappointed at members who try to sell for cash or profit from trades.
I almost wish there was a way to have a "waiting" period where we could ensure members read the CC TOS before they were ever able to participate. Unfortunately, was told a few years ago there was no way to do that with our current platform.
Usually, people just dont agree with the rules... and believe that is reason enough to not follow them.... but again, over 99% of the members have no difficulty playing by the rules.
I am constantly amazed by the generosity of the community at times. I know that I have given away (nothing in return) at least 14 United SWU's over the year. But I also get disappointed at members who try to sell for cash or profit from trades.
Right off the bat I'd say one problem is that the document is 11 pages long in 10 point type. That's REALLY long. And no Table of Contents, much less one that is linked to sections.
Right now you and I and spiff may be the only people on FT who have read the entire thing in the past year or more.
I'll take a closer look this afternoon and/or tonight and see if I can offer any specific suggestions beyond formatting, though.
And I do think it would be fun to force posters to pass a quiz on the rules in order to get access to the forum. Maybe they have the ability on MP...
Jan 17, 2012, 1:51 pm
#11
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While a few years old, now, this post will give you a short version of the genesis of the Coupon Connection rules (obviously some of the admin stuff et al is no longer germane, but maybe this will be helpful nonetheless):
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/7911520-post15.html
...Maybe some would find the following historical perspective helpful; in it I speak only for myself, and my fellow Coupon Connection moderators may or may not associate with my comments
Old-timers will remember that, say, six or so years ago, what a mess Coupon Connection was -- incessant flame wars, cash transactions, "coupons" for everything under the sun. In December 2001 I wrote (simply as a member) an "Unofficial Coupon Connection FAQ." The "guts" of it -- though much-revised -- are what can be seen today as the Coupon Connection Guidelines/FAQ. In the summer of 2002 there were three moderators on FlyerTalk: Burkey, moderator2, and essxjay; at that time Randy appointed me a moderator for United and Coupon Connection and invited my help in "cleaning up" Coupon Connection. About this same time Randy also dropped the "unofficial" from the "Coupon Connection FAQ" and approved it as the rules for how Coupon Connection was to function. In ~ January 2003, the first "wave" of moderators was appointed and dmfriedman joined me as moderator of Coupon Connection. We continued Randy's mandate of "cleaning up" Coupon Connection and, later, asked Randy to appoint two more moderators because of the workload (and SanDiego1K and wharvey were appointed).
There have been several changes -- some that might be considered major and most minor -- to the Coupon Connection Guidelines/FAQ since then, but please note: these have been approved by Randy. These, therefore, are not simply "the moderators' rules" but Randy's rules.
Today, due to these rules Coupon Connection is a usually pretty civil place which functions, as Randy has said repeatedly, as a privilege for long-time contributing FTers. (And, btw, all the moderators are pretty good at spotting "post-padders" who are on a "run" for Coupon Connection access. There are a few "runner" posters who will tell you that they have found their post-counts reset or have been masked from Coupon Connection by the HOM staff in keeping with Randy's insistence that Coupon Connection is to be for "contributing members" of FlyerTalk.
Old-timers will remember that, say, six or so years ago, what a mess Coupon Connection was -- incessant flame wars, cash transactions, "coupons" for everything under the sun. In December 2001 I wrote (simply as a member) an "Unofficial Coupon Connection FAQ." The "guts" of it -- though much-revised -- are what can be seen today as the Coupon Connection Guidelines/FAQ. In the summer of 2002 there were three moderators on FlyerTalk: Burkey, moderator2, and essxjay; at that time Randy appointed me a moderator for United and Coupon Connection and invited my help in "cleaning up" Coupon Connection. About this same time Randy also dropped the "unofficial" from the "Coupon Connection FAQ" and approved it as the rules for how Coupon Connection was to function. In ~ January 2003, the first "wave" of moderators was appointed and dmfriedman joined me as moderator of Coupon Connection. We continued Randy's mandate of "cleaning up" Coupon Connection and, later, asked Randy to appoint two more moderators because of the workload (and SanDiego1K and wharvey were appointed).
There have been several changes -- some that might be considered major and most minor -- to the Coupon Connection Guidelines/FAQ since then, but please note: these have been approved by Randy. These, therefore, are not simply "the moderators' rules" but Randy's rules.
Today, due to these rules Coupon Connection is a usually pretty civil place which functions, as Randy has said repeatedly, as a privilege for long-time contributing FTers. (And, btw, all the moderators are pretty good at spotting "post-padders" who are on a "run" for Coupon Connection access. There are a few "runner" posters who will tell you that they have found their post-counts reset or have been masked from Coupon Connection by the HOM staff in keeping with Randy's insistence that Coupon Connection is to be for "contributing members" of FlyerTalk.
Jan 17, 2012, 1:56 pm
#12
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While a few years old, now, this post will give you a short version of the genesis of the Coupon Connection rules (obviously some of the admin stuff et al is no longer germane, but maybe this will be helpful nonetheless):
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/7911520-post15.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/7911520-post15.html
Jan 17, 2012, 4:09 pm
#13
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I am reviewing the TOS and moved it to a Word document to redline it.
Right off the bat I'd say one problem is that the document is 11 pages long in 10 point type. That's REALLY long. And no Table of Contents, much less one that is linked to sections.
Right now you and I and spiff may be the only people on FT who have read the entire thing in the past year or more.
I'll take a closer look this afternoon and/or tonight and see if I can offer any specific suggestions beyond formatting, though.
And I do think it would be fun to force posters to pass a quiz on the rules in order to get access to the forum. Maybe they have the ability on MP...
Right off the bat I'd say one problem is that the document is 11 pages long in 10 point type. That's REALLY long. And no Table of Contents, much less one that is linked to sections.
Right now you and I and spiff may be the only people on FT who have read the entire thing in the past year or more.
I'll take a closer look this afternoon and/or tonight and see if I can offer any specific suggestions beyond formatting, though.
And I do think it would be fun to force posters to pass a quiz on the rules in order to get access to the forum. Maybe they have the ability on MP...
And make it a pinned thread. As a forum announcement, it gets lost up top.
Jan 17, 2012, 4:41 pm
#14
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I think the mods do a good job, but my one pet peeve with CC TOS is something like this:
Jack offers EVIPs in exchange for SPG. The trade completes. Then 6 months later, Jack offers EVIPs or AA miles or EVIPs in exchange for UA or CO, and the mods merge the two threads and leave the old title. Then a year later Jack offers AA miles for Skypesos. Merge. Bad title. Repeat...
Jack may trade AA stuff a couple of times a year, for different things, but they are completely separate trades, not Jack trying to bump the same item every five days for six months. So why should I have to scroll down through 3 pages of offers, only to find out that presently, Jack is offering AA miles in exchange for Hyatt when the title thread said EVIPs for SPG?
Now I understand that some people have standing offers, for example, a supply of car rental certs. This should certainly be one thread.
I think there should be a distinction between 'standing offer' versus 'modifying an offer' versus 'offering to trade AA items twice in one year'. If the title no longer makes sense, then it's probably not the same trade...
Jack offers EVIPs in exchange for SPG. The trade completes. Then 6 months later, Jack offers EVIPs or AA miles or EVIPs in exchange for UA or CO, and the mods merge the two threads and leave the old title. Then a year later Jack offers AA miles for Skypesos. Merge. Bad title. Repeat...
Jack may trade AA stuff a couple of times a year, for different things, but they are completely separate trades, not Jack trying to bump the same item every five days for six months. So why should I have to scroll down through 3 pages of offers, only to find out that presently, Jack is offering AA miles in exchange for Hyatt when the title thread said EVIPs for SPG?
Now I understand that some people have standing offers, for example, a supply of car rental certs. This should certainly be one thread.
I think there should be a distinction between 'standing offer' versus 'modifying an offer' versus 'offering to trade AA items twice in one year'. If the title no longer makes sense, then it's probably not the same trade...
Last edited by janetdoe; Jan 17, 2012 at 4:52 pm
Jan 17, 2012, 5:14 pm
#15
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I think the mods do a good job, but my one pet peeve with CC TOS is something like this:
Jack offers EVIPs in exchange for SPG. The trade completes. Then 6 months later, Jack offers EVIPs or AA miles or EVIPs in exchange for UA or CO, and the mods merge the two threads and leave the old title. Then a year later Jack offers AA miles for Skypesos. Merge. Bad title. Repeat...
Jack may trade AA stuff a couple of times a year, for different things, but they are completely separate trades, not Jack trying to bump the same item every five days for six months. So why should I have to scroll down through 3 pages of offers, only to find out that presently, Jack is offering AA miles in exchange for Hyatt when the title thread said EVIPs for SPG?
Now I understand that some people have standing offers, for example, a supply of car rental certs. This should certainly be one thread.
I think there should be a distinction between 'standing offer' versus 'modifying an offer' versus 'offering to trade AA items twice in one year'. If the title no longer makes sense, then it's probably not the same trade...
Jack offers EVIPs in exchange for SPG. The trade completes. Then 6 months later, Jack offers EVIPs or AA miles or EVIPs in exchange for UA or CO, and the mods merge the two threads and leave the old title. Then a year later Jack offers AA miles for Skypesos. Merge. Bad title. Repeat...
Jack may trade AA stuff a couple of times a year, for different things, but they are completely separate trades, not Jack trying to bump the same item every five days for six months. So why should I have to scroll down through 3 pages of offers, only to find out that presently, Jack is offering AA miles in exchange for Hyatt when the title thread said EVIPs for SPG?
Now I understand that some people have standing offers, for example, a supply of car rental certs. This should certainly be one thread.
I think there should be a distinction between 'standing offer' versus 'modifying an offer' versus 'offering to trade AA items twice in one year'. If the title no longer makes sense, then it's probably not the same trade...