Your thoughts, please: 2 week voting period for TB motions
Jan 15, 2012, 10:25 am
#1
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 1999
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 15,346
Your thoughts, please: 2 week voting period for TB motions
Hi,
The current process for TB motions is that once a subject is introduced either here or in the private TB forum a motion can be made by a TB member after a 48-hour waiting period. Once that motion is made and seconded, a vote is opened and that starts a 2-week clock for voting.
One thing's clear: Once a motion has 6 yea votes or 4 nay votes, the vote is, for all practical purposes, decided. Even if this happens on the first day of voting, if a TB member either is unavailable or even wishes to delay the announcement or implementation of a completed vote, he or she can do so by simply not voting or waiting to vote until the last minute. In the past TB, there were members who stopped participating altogether and one, two years ago, was removed from the TB. Even then, the poll took two full weeks in order to give the person being removed a chance to (again) not submit a vote.
I'm considering making a motion where the TB would announce merely whether a motion has passed or failed once enough votes in either direction are tallied. The votes, at that point, could remain private until either all 9 TB members have voted or the time period expires, at which point the TB VP would make a subsequent post announcing the way everyone voted.
The main motivation for this is that it's possible that there could be a number of lengthy debates where FT members continue to passionately argue for motions (one way or another) when votes could actually be decided. I think it's disrespectful for our members and our members' time for us to continue to operate this way.
I posted a trial balloon in the private forum a while back and I think it's important for me and for others on the TB to see if anyone (not on the TB) has any strong feelings about this one way or another.
The current process for TB motions is that once a subject is introduced either here or in the private TB forum a motion can be made by a TB member after a 48-hour waiting period. Once that motion is made and seconded, a vote is opened and that starts a 2-week clock for voting.
One thing's clear: Once a motion has 6 yea votes or 4 nay votes, the vote is, for all practical purposes, decided. Even if this happens on the first day of voting, if a TB member either is unavailable or even wishes to delay the announcement or implementation of a completed vote, he or she can do so by simply not voting or waiting to vote until the last minute. In the past TB, there were members who stopped participating altogether and one, two years ago, was removed from the TB. Even then, the poll took two full weeks in order to give the person being removed a chance to (again) not submit a vote.
I'm considering making a motion where the TB would announce merely whether a motion has passed or failed once enough votes in either direction are tallied. The votes, at that point, could remain private until either all 9 TB members have voted or the time period expires, at which point the TB VP would make a subsequent post announcing the way everyone voted.
The main motivation for this is that it's possible that there could be a number of lengthy debates where FT members continue to passionately argue for motions (one way or another) when votes could actually be decided. I think it's disrespectful for our members and our members' time for us to continue to operate this way.
I posted a trial balloon in the private forum a while back and I think it's important for me and for others on the TB to see if anyone (not on the TB) has any strong feelings about this one way or another.
Jan 15, 2012, 10:41 am
#2
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,100
I see this as a solution in search of a problem, and really (speaking only for myself) falls under the is this all TB has to think about instead of thinking of ways to make FT a better place for those with travel-related interests category.
The voting process is 2 weeks or until TB members have voted. Announcing an outcome before all TB members have voted makes absolutely no sense to me (yes, even if we know it's going to pass or - alternatively - fail), and also does a disservice to TB members who haven't voted, aka, hey do whatever you want, we don't care, we already announced that this has passed or failed, so really you don't matter at this point, but thanks for eventually voting so we can post a nice tidy 9-member vote after we've announced the outcome.
Sometimes votes happen quickly; sometimes they don't. Sometimes, even if something will pass or fail, a TB member who hasn't voted still wants input before making his/her decision.
The FT world isn't going to fall apart if we wait until all TB members have voted before announcing the outcome of a motion.
BTW - I say that as someone who, when not on TB, suggested forums for TB to consider & when they made it into a motion (two times) would have liked to have known the outcome but was willing to let due process take its course & also didn't think the until everyone voted or 2 weeks was an onorous timeframe before finding out the outcome.
I'll go on record as saying that if this comes to a motion I will vote against it.
Cheers.
The voting process is 2 weeks or until TB members have voted. Announcing an outcome before all TB members have voted makes absolutely no sense to me (yes, even if we know it's going to pass or - alternatively - fail), and also does a disservice to TB members who haven't voted, aka, hey do whatever you want, we don't care, we already announced that this has passed or failed, so really you don't matter at this point, but thanks for eventually voting so we can post a nice tidy 9-member vote after we've announced the outcome.
Sometimes votes happen quickly; sometimes they don't. Sometimes, even if something will pass or fail, a TB member who hasn't voted still wants input before making his/her decision.
The FT world isn't going to fall apart if we wait until all TB members have voted before announcing the outcome of a motion.
BTW - I say that as someone who, when not on TB, suggested forums for TB to consider & when they made it into a motion (two times) would have liked to have known the outcome but was willing to let due process take its course & also didn't think the until everyone voted or 2 weeks was an onorous timeframe before finding out the outcome.
I'll go on record as saying that if this comes to a motion I will vote against it.
Cheers.
Last edited by SkiAdcock; Jan 15, 2012 at 10:59 am
Jan 15, 2012, 10:53 am
#3
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 1999
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 15,346
I'm OK with that. At least you'd be making your feelings known with your vote and telling everyone here that pages and pages of debate could continue on and on and on even after a motion receives 6 yea or 4 no votes.
The more I think about it, the more I think this motion is appropriate. Maybe not quite in this form, but in some form.
Your argument here makes no sense to me. I'm not sure non-TB members know this, but TB members that have not voted yet *know* how many yea votes have been cast, how many no votes have been cast and who's cast which votes.
We also know, by the process of elimination, who hasn't yet voted.
I'm not sure how announcing that a motion has carried and witholding the public announcement of who voted which way changes a thing OTHER than it stops needless public debate and stops the unnecessary delay of, for example, opening a new forum. It still allows me to come in and make a late vote and nobody outside of TB would know who voted late.
The more I think about it, the more I think this motion is appropriate. Maybe not quite in this form, but in some form.
Your argument here makes no sense to me. I'm not sure non-TB members know this, but TB members that have not voted yet *know* how many yea votes have been cast, how many no votes have been cast and who's cast which votes.
We also know, by the process of elimination, who hasn't yet voted.
I'm not sure how announcing that a motion has carried and witholding the public announcement of who voted which way changes a thing OTHER than it stops needless public debate and stops the unnecessary delay of, for example, opening a new forum. It still allows me to come in and make a late vote and nobody outside of TB would know who voted late.
Jan 15, 2012, 10:56 am
#4
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,194
I see this as a solution in search of a problem, and really (speaking only for myself) falls under the is this all TB has to think about instead of thinking of ways to make FT a better place for those with travel-related interests category.
The voting process is 2 weeks or until TB members have voted. Announcing an outcome before all TB members have voted makes absolutely no sense to me (yes, even if we know it's going to pass or - alternatively - fail), and also does a disservice to TB members who haven't voted, aka, hey do whatever you want, we don't care, we already announced that this has passed or failed, so really you don't matter at this point, but thanks for eventually voting so we can post a nice tidy 9-member vote after we've announced the outcome.
The FT world isn't going to fall apart if we wait until all TB members have voted before announcing the outcome of a motion.
BTW - I say that as someone who, when not on TB, suggested forums for TB to consider & when they made it into a motion (two times) would have liked to have known the outcome but was willing to let due process take its course & also didn't think the until everyone voted or 2 weeks was an onorous timeframe.
I'll go on record as saying that if this comes to a motion I will vote against it.
Cheers.
The voting process is 2 weeks or until TB members have voted. Announcing an outcome before all TB members have voted makes absolutely no sense to me (yes, even if we know it's going to pass or - alternatively - fail), and also does a disservice to TB members who haven't voted, aka, hey do whatever you want, we don't care, we already announced that this has passed or failed, so really you don't matter at this point, but thanks for eventually voting so we can post a nice tidy 9-member vote after we've announced the outcome.
The FT world isn't going to fall apart if we wait until all TB members have voted before announcing the outcome of a motion.
BTW - I say that as someone who, when not on TB, suggested forums for TB to consider & when they made it into a motion (two times) would have liked to have known the outcome but was willing to let due process take its course & also didn't think the until everyone voted or 2 weeks was an onorous timeframe.
I'll go on record as saying that if this comes to a motion I will vote against it.
Cheers.
Jan 15, 2012, 11:00 am
#5
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 1999
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 15,346
Jan 15, 2012, 11:00 am
#6
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
Posts: 58,586
Here is what I posted about this idea in the private TB forum:
I agree that it makes more sense, once a motion gets 6 votes for or 4 votes against, for the result to be announced.
It just seems pretty silly (and even a little cruel) to continue public and/or private debate on a matter for up to 2 weeks if the issue has already been decided one way or the other.
It just seems pretty silly (and even a little cruel) to continue public and/or private debate on a matter for up to 2 weeks if the issue has already been decided one way or the other.
Well maybe cruel is a strong word, but for there to be a debate when the decision is already made is at the very least a waste of a poster's time and and would probably anger a lot of folks if they knew they were wasting their time debating an issue that has already been decided.
Then again, some of us love to debate an issue that has already been decided.
Then again, some of us love to debate an issue that has already been decided.
Jan 15, 2012, 11:07 am
#7
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,100
I'm OK with that. At least you'd be making your feelings known with your vote and telling everyone here that pages and pages of debate could continue on and on and on even after a motion receives 6 yea or 4 no votes.
The more I think about it, the more I think this motion is appropriate. Maybe not quite in this form, but in some form.
Your argument here makes no sense to me. I'm not sure non-TB members know this, but TB members that have not voted yet *know* how many yea votes have been cast, how many no votes have been cast and who's cast which votes.
We also know, by the process of elimination, who hasn't yet voted.
I'm not sure how announcing that a motion has carried and witholding the public announcement of who voted which way changes a thing OTHER than it stops needless public debate and stops the unnecessary delay of, for example, opening a new forum. It still allows me to come in and make a late vote and nobody outside of TB would know who voted late.
The more I think about it, the more I think this motion is appropriate. Maybe not quite in this form, but in some form.
Your argument here makes no sense to me. I'm not sure non-TB members know this, but TB members that have not voted yet *know* how many yea votes have been cast, how many no votes have been cast and who's cast which votes.
We also know, by the process of elimination, who hasn't yet voted.
I'm not sure how announcing that a motion has carried and witholding the public announcement of who voted which way changes a thing OTHER than it stops needless public debate and stops the unnecessary delay of, for example, opening a new forum. It still allows me to come in and make a late vote and nobody outside of TB would know who voted late.
It doesn't really matter if a TB member can see how other TB members have voted or which way they've voted. Each TB member has to vote based on what the input from FTers is, as well as their own judgment, and just because some TB members have voted enough for something to go one way or the other doesn't negate the remaining TB members votes or their wanting continued input before casting their votes.
Seriously, the FT/TB world isn't going to fall apart if announcements don't happen until all 9 votes are counted.
Cheers.
Jan 15, 2012, 11:10 am
#8
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 1999
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 15,346
There is no such thing as 'voting late'. There is a 2- week timeframe to vote, and part of that is because sometimes TB members are traveling & don't have i-net access or work or life stuff intervenes.
It doesn't really matter if a TB member can see how other TB members have voted or which way they've voted. Each TB member has to vote based on what the input from FTers is, as well as their own judgment, and just because some TB members have voted enough for something to go one way or the other doesn't negate the remaining TB members votes or their wanting continued input before casting their votes.
Seriously, the FT/TB world isn't going to fall apart if announcements don't happen until all 9 votes are counted.
Cheers.
It doesn't really matter if a TB member can see how other TB members have voted or which way they've voted. Each TB member has to vote based on what the input from FTers is, as well as their own judgment, and just because some TB members have voted enough for something to go one way or the other doesn't negate the remaining TB members votes or their wanting continued input before casting their votes.
Seriously, the FT/TB world isn't going to fall apart if announcements don't happen until all 9 votes are counted.
Cheers.
While I appreciate your opinion, I'm really most interested in the opinions of the people who put us on TalkBoard -- the people who could conceivably post passionately on threads for days and days while a motion sits already decided waiting for a vote or two. Maybe I'm the only person who cares. I'd prefer letting this run for a while and get input/feedback.
Jan 15, 2012, 11:29 am
#9
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
Posts: 58,586
Just to be clear what we are talking about here, hypothetically the Air Berlin motion could have enough votes right now to pass and could already be created and up and running (assuming the CD accepts the TB's recommendation to create it) but as one or two or three TB members have not voted yet the VP/Secretary and all other TB members are unable to announce the inevitable result.
So posters in this hypothetical example continue to give their input/lobby/debate the issue even though it is already decided one way or the other.
The question is: Is that ok?
So posters in this hypothetical example continue to give their input/lobby/debate the issue even though it is already decided one way or the other.
The question is: Is that ok?
Jan 15, 2012, 11:30 am
#10
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,100
While I appreciate your opinion, I'm really most interested in the opinions of the people who put us on TalkBoard -- the people who could conceivably post passionately on threads for days and days while a motion sits already decided waiting for a vote or two. Maybe I'm the only person who cares. I'd prefer letting this run for a while and get input/feedback.
FTers will discuss for days & days anyway, and will discuss for days and days even after the vote is officially posted. I guess I have a problem with you telling FTers on the one hand that their input is valued, yet on the other hand you're saying it's not when some TB members still want to hear input from FTers before making their decision/do their fiduciary responsibility.
FWIW - you did hear from one FTer about it - me, and I passed my opinion as someone who was not on TB, but has suggested forums & was vastly interested in the outcome, but was willing to wait until all votes were cast.
BTW - given it's the middle of a long holiday weekend in the US, I don't think you'll (we'll) get tons of input on anything until folk are back from holidays, SIN Do, etc. Yikes - speaking of which - gotta run.
Cheers.
Jan 15, 2012, 11:36 am
#11
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 1999
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 15,346
You must be smoking something FTers will discuss for days & days anyway, and will discuss for days and days even after the vote is officially posted.
I guess I have a problem with you telling FTers on the one hand that their input is valued, yet on the other hand you're saying it's not when some TB members still want to hear input from FTers before making their decision/do their fiduciary responsibility.
FWIW - you did hear from one FTer about it - me, and I passed my opinion as someone who was not on TB, but has suggested forums & was vastly interested in the outcome, but was willing to wait until all votes were cast.
BTW - given it's the middle of a long holiday weekend in the US, I don't think you'll (we'll) get tons of input on anything until folk are back from holidays, SIN Do, etc. Yikes - speaking of which - gotta run.
Cheers.
FTers will discuss for days & days anyway, and will discuss for days and days even after the vote is officially posted. I guess I have a problem with you telling FTers on the one hand that their input is valued, yet on the other hand you're saying it's not when some TB members still want to hear input from FTers before making their decision/do their fiduciary responsibility.
FWIW - you did hear from one FTer about it - me, and I passed my opinion as someone who was not on TB, but has suggested forums & was vastly interested in the outcome, but was willing to wait until all votes were cast.
BTW - given it's the middle of a long holiday weekend in the US, I don't think you'll (we'll) get tons of input on anything until folk are back from holidays, SIN Do, etc. Yikes - speaking of which - gotta run.
Cheers.
I'm willing to wait for opinions here, though. Nothing's been decided yet, unlike motions that already have six yea or four no votes. @:-)
Jan 15, 2012, 11:37 am
#12
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,100
Just to be clear what we are talking about here, hypothetically the Air Berlin motion could have enough votes right now to pass and could already be created and up and running (assuming the CD accepts the TB's recommendation to create it) but as one or two or three TB members have not voted yet the VP/Secretary and all other TB members are unable to announce the inevitable result.
So posters in this hypothetical example continue to give their input/lobby/debate the issue even though it is already decided one way or the other.
The question is: Is that ok?
So posters in this hypothetical example continue to give their input/lobby/debate the issue even though it is already decided one way or the other.
The question is: Is that ok?
Posts will continue to go in the threads re: a topic where they currently go, posts will count or not count, images would exist or not exist. The FT world will not fall apart based on a couple days.
And I'm very concerned that some TB members want to discount FTers input when the voting process is still open as though their input doesn't matter, and that the remaining TB members votes don't matter either.
Cheers.
Jan 15, 2012, 11:39 am
#13
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 1999
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 15,346
Let me ask the opposite - what actual harm is being done with any forum or posts counting or not counting, or any topic/motion, if a vote isn't announced until all TB members have voted?
Posts will continue to go in the threads re: a topic where they currently go, posts will count or not count, images would exist or not exist. The FT world will not fall apart based on a couple days.
And I'm very concerned that some TB members want to discount FTers input when the voting process is still open as though their input doesn't matter, and that the remaining TB members votes don't matter either.
Cheers.
Posts will continue to go in the threads re: a topic where they currently go, posts will count or not count, images would exist or not exist. The FT world will not fall apart based on a couple days.
And I'm very concerned that some TB members want to discount FTers input when the voting process is still open as though their input doesn't matter, and that the remaining TB members votes don't matter either.
Cheers.
Jan 15, 2012, 11:43 am
#14
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
Posts: 58,586
Let me ask the opposite - what actual harm is being done with any forum or posts counting or not counting, or any topic/motion, if a vote isn't announced until all TB members have voted?
Posts will continue to go in the threads re: a topic where they currently go, posts will count or not count, images would exist or not exist. The FT world will not fall apart based on a couple days.
And I'm very concerned that some TB members want to discount FTers input when the voting process is still open as though their input doesn't matter, and that the remaining TB members votes don't matter either.
Cheers.
Posts will continue to go in the threads re: a topic where they currently go, posts will count or not count, images would exist or not exist. The FT world will not fall apart based on a couple days.
And I'm very concerned that some TB members want to discount FTers input when the voting process is still open as though their input doesn't matter, and that the remaining TB members votes don't matter either.
Cheers.
If a TB member wants to wait 13 days, 23 hours and 59 minutes to vote that is his or her right. But if 6 other TBers have voted yes or 4 TBers have voted no, no amount of input is going to change the outcome even if it does affect how that TB member votes.
Jan 15, 2012, 11:49 am
#15
Moderator, Marriott Bonvoy & FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: McKinney, TX, USA
Programs: United Silver; AA Plat/2MM; Marriott LT Titanium; Hilton Gold
Posts: 11,727
My first thought was that stating the "winner" before everyone had voted might affect the votes of those who voted after the minimum requirements for winning/losing. But I have learned something about the TB internal voting process. If everyone on the TB can already see the interim voting counts (and even who voted for what), then going ahead and notifying the wider FT "public" once a vote's outcome had been decided doesn't change anything other than letting everyone else know earlier in the process what the outcome is.
So if I understood the TB process correctly, every TB member can still vote within the two weeks voting timeframe. Since the individual votes would still be "private", no one outside the TB would actually know who voted for what. I don't see any type of coercement as being an issue.
So basically, while I don't think waiting two weeks is a major hardship, I do agree that in some discussions, especially the more "discussed" ones, the longer the discussion goes on, the stronger some opinions and posts can get. And it might be helpful to let everyone know the outcome, thus letting people move on to the next big issue.
At the moment, I don't really see any downside, but can see at least some modest upside.
So if I understood the TB process correctly, every TB member can still vote within the two weeks voting timeframe. Since the individual votes would still be "private", no one outside the TB would actually know who voted for what. I don't see any type of coercement as being an issue.
So basically, while I don't think waiting two weeks is a major hardship, I do agree that in some discussions, especially the more "discussed" ones, the longer the discussion goes on, the stronger some opinions and posts can get. And it might be helpful to let everyone know the outcome, thus letting people move on to the next big issue.
At the moment, I don't really see any downside, but can see at least some modest upside.