SkiAdcock

I don't usually think of what Flyertalk gets out of it when we propose new forums, but what Flyertalkers get out of it - will they benefit from knowledge/expertise/an area to go to that's more specific than some of the general forums.

Cheers.

dhammer53

Please post to the thread. That's where I keep track of everything.

goalie

The way I see it with dhammer53 and his world renowned BRT ^ is that he does this out of love and not to lose his shirt vs a company making money off of F/T. I may be wrong but that's how I see it (and one of these days, I'll have my M/R people talk to his BRT people and get my tuchas in gear and make it )

That's what I'm hoping for but wondering if there are/could be any numbers that we could see now based on what's currently out there

SkiAdcock

That has nothing to do w/ TB's mandate IMO, but if you want info I'd say contact IB.

Cheers.

jackal

That's a nice, warm, fuzzy thought (and I hope to make it to the BRT, too--I probably can this year if space on the waitlist opens up, since I'll be close by), but I'm not sure how your point is germane.

I've now hosted several Alaska DOs, which have turned into more than just the typical casual-meet-up-for-dinner DO. They've been full-on multi-day tour packages that have taken me a ton of effort to put together in a way that offers the best value to the participants--no small feat, given that travel in Alaska in the summer is painfully expensive (cars start at $120/day and 2* hotels start at $175-200/night). Two things were said at the conclusion of the 127 Pounds of Cabbage DO in 2010: "Wow, this ended up being way cheaper than I thought it could be!" and "You've put Alaska on the FlyerTalk DO map." I take great pride in those two comments.

Did I make any money off of any of those? No. I never did get around to finishing crunching the numbers, but if anything, I think I took a small loss on it. But it was worth it. I did it for the love of the FlyerTalk community, and I'll do it again this June (join us for the No Place Like Nome DO!) for the love of the FlyerTalk community.

But that's one week a year. Making a truly usable travel tool can be a full-time gig. I'd love it if ExpertFlyer were free and created their entire site and paid their recurring GDS fees out of the love of the FlyerTalk community. That's a pipe dream, of course. Not only do they have costs to cover, they also have to make their house payments and feed their families. If they've dedicated their full-time work to benefiting the FlyerTalk community by providing a useful tool that makes our lives easier, why should we begrudge them that? Comparing them to the BRT or the Alaska DOs is apples and oranges.

The subject of this discussion isn't at all related to what dozens or even hundreds of FlyerTalkers do to facilitate the community spirit of FlyerTalk by organizing and hosting various meets and DOs. It's to provide a place for those niche providers that provide tools that make our lives easier, whether for free or for a fee, to engage with the FlyerTalk community and allow us to provide feedback, help direct the development of the products, or even (heaven forbid) air complaints so that the services can even better suit the needs of the members of our community. And if more community members can discover the services and help make them even more successful, so much the better! It'll help ensure the long-term viability of the ventures.

I'll also admit that it's always stuck in my craw that MilePoint beat us to this with the introduction of ConcourseZ. I'd had a similar idea to this long before MilePoint's domain was registered at its current registrar, but I guess I didn't get off my tuchus and make it a reality. So, maybe we can no longer do it first, but we're FlyerTalk: we can do it better!

Q Shoe Guy

Great post Jackal !^

LIH Prem

They already are, look at all the self-congratulatory posts by KVS, for example, and I think we're pretty much stuck with it.

I emailed Carol about this, and she mentioned the suggestion of a Travel Tools forum so at least we can sweep all those posts about a tool (informational or otherwise) into one forum (or even a travel tools forum with sub forums for kvs, expert flyer, etc). I think it's a great idea, and a reasonable trade off to the issues many of you have raised and responded to.

Those that are interested in the travel tools, such as KVS, Expert Flyer and any other related or unrelated travel tools can go spend time in that forum and find their answers. Those that are not, won't have to even see the thread titles or read about that stuff in other forums. And the moderators in the other forums can refer those discussions to the appropriate travel tools forum or sub-forums.

I think it's a reasonable tradeoff. Is there a downside? Given that we already allow the topics to infect other forums, I don't see any.

I hope that our TB members will support the creation of a Travel Tools forum and make it happen as soon as possible.



-David

dhammer53

Bolding mine. I can't possibly add to jackals well thought out post. ^

kokonutz

As Carol apparently indicated to you, we've been tossing this idea around in the private TB topics forum.

Here is an expanded-upon version of my most recent post on the issue from that forum for public poster consideration:



In re: a 'Travel Tools' forum, the devil is in the definition.

Are blogs travel tools? Travel agencies and/or things like award booking service? And leaving the exclusively digital realm, are books? Magazines?

Basically: what exactly is a 'travel tool/service?' And who decides where that line is?

The way Concourse Z is structured on MP, the concourse is a 'forum' and each product gets a sub-forum. That makes it the 'longest' forum on MP's main forum page.

I always thought that looked kind of gaudy.

So structure is another key question.

Moving from asking questions to providing suggestions, my first thought is that it makes the most sense at the outset to create a forum for travel tools & services but rather than having a formal sub-forum or even a thread for each product, allow the forum to evolve naturally.

Allow any tool or service that is travel related to be talked about, and linked to by any flyertalker. But no direct sales on FT. Sort of like a trade show rather than a marketplace. Let the posters decide what they want to talk about and see what evolves. If the owners of the products and services want to participate in the discussions, great. If not, let the posters talk about their product in their absence. Obviously online booking/bidding threads and posts posted in the new travel tools forum would be moved to online booking/bidding forum that already exists. Technology posts/threads would be move to the existing Travel Tech, etc. What will be left will be the threads and posts about tools and services that Flyertalkers want to talk about and use.

Maybe require 180 days 180 posts for entry to keep out both robo-spam as well as human spammers....?

See how that goes.

And a sticky at the top: CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!!

As for hybrid commercial/Dos like the seminars and the megados, to me those are tools or products and belong in a travel tool/service forum. Whether they are for-profit or non-profit. The ROI is in knowledge and/or comped statuses with the community-aspect as a side benefit rather than the core reason for attending. Just like it would be if you bought a book or subscribed to a magazine about frequent travel tricks and tips. But I wouldn't want my personal opinion on that matter to screw up the creation of a travel tools forum.

Anyway, that's just a rough draft to prove that I'm not just asking questions but trying to put pen to paper for an actual proposal.

kokonutz

DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT

Proposed Motion (for discussion purposes only at this time):

The TalkBoard recommends that a Frequent Travel Tools & Services forum be created that:

• allows the centralized discussion of any tool, service or software that is frequent travel related,
• allows links to that tool, service or software's web site by any FlyerTalker,
• prohibits direct sales on FT for frequent travel related tools and services as spam
• lets the members decide what they want to talk about in terms of those tools without undue influence by the tool and service providers nor artificial limits imposed by FlyerTalk
• allows but does not require participation by the owner/provider of the tools and services, including a ‘master thread’ regarding a provider’s tool or service started by the provider
• allows online booking/bidding threads to be moved to the FT online booking/bidding forum and hardware and more general software technology not directly related to frequent travel tools and services threads to be moved to the FT Travel Tech forum.

The vision of the TalkBoard is that this forum exist for discussion of the frequent travel tools and services that Flyertalkers want to talk about and use.

Jenbel

Picky correction

First sentence Travel not Tavel.

Less picky correction - I'm not understanding what is intended by Point 3, point 4 is a bit woolly and I don't know what the intention of it is either (although I could make educated guesses).

cblaisd

In general, I like, but why not let those providers openly sell their wares? No ax, just curious.

And what did you mean by this:

kokonutz

Thanks! Fixed ^

prohibits direct sales on FT for frequent travel related tools and services as spam

The notion here is that this forum be used to discuss the tools and services, not be used to sell subscriptions. So a provider could say 'come check out my tool and see if you like it' she could not say 'buy my tool, it's freaking awesome.' As I say in the post above, it's meant to be a trade show where we can talk about the products sometimes in the presence of the provider, sometimes not. It is NOT meant to be a showroom floor. It may be necessary to reflect on this point, though. For example, discussions of pricing may naturally evolve. Having the provider participate in that conversation might skirt this line. Overall, the idea is to avoid hard-selling and/or straight up spamming.

lets the members decide what they want to talk about in terms of those tools without undue influence by the tool and service providers nor artificial limits imposed by FlyerTalk

The idea here is that FlyerTalk not impose a structure on the forum by creating subforums for individual products, or require that all discussion necessarily take place in a single or master thread about a product. And that FT not limit what products are ok to talk about and which are not. And that service providers not be allowed to arbitrarily restrict comments or discussion one way or another. If you think it is meant to mean that no moderation takes place in the proposed forum, you are absolutely mistaken, as the last point ought to make clear (as though it would need to be made clear....), and especially spam bots, which might be somehow construed to be allowed in this forum, need to be squashed.

pete4212

I think this is a great idea. What will this mean for product/service threads that already exist in various forums? Will they all be moved to this new forum? I would think they should so all the information/reviews/feedback can be in one place.

kokonutz

I would think so, just as all Aeroflot threads would be moved to a dedicated forum should one be created.