What is a 'Do?' When does a 'Do' become a commercial venture?
#121
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Stop worrying that someone, somewhere might somehow benefit either by having part of their travel cost offset, or becoming 'famous' by providing useful assistance to frequent flyers that they might somehow benefit sometime in the future from their current generosity (karma anyone?).
And instead focus on yourself, think about the countless hours folks are putting in to try to benefit hundreds of members of a community.
And consider whether you're doing nearly as much for members of the community as the folks you criticize or scrutinize.
And let me just say, ingy, thank you for all of the efforts you've gone through to organize an event last year that nearly 500 frequent flyers attended and universally got tremendous value out of. The only complaints I heard were lack of fruits and veggies at breakfast, and that was because you weren't aksing people to kick in enough cash!
When I said to you -- prior to this thread -- that I hoped there would be enough cash left from the registration fees at the end that you might be able to take your wife to dinner, given the amount of spouse time you lose out on by doing the event, you told me that under no circumstances would you use any funds from the event for such a dinner.
So thank you on behalf of the community, and on behalf of the haters who won't say so. ^
And instead focus on yourself, think about the countless hours folks are putting in to try to benefit hundreds of members of a community.
And consider whether you're doing nearly as much for members of the community as the folks you criticize or scrutinize.
And let me just say, ingy, thank you for all of the efforts you've gone through to organize an event last year that nearly 500 frequent flyers attended and universally got tremendous value out of. The only complaints I heard were lack of fruits and veggies at breakfast, and that was because you weren't aksing people to kick in enough cash!
When I said to you -- prior to this thread -- that I hoped there would be enough cash left from the registration fees at the end that you might be able to take your wife to dinner, given the amount of spouse time you lose out on by doing the event, you told me that under no circumstances would you use any funds from the event for such a dinner.
So thank you on behalf of the community, and on behalf of the haters who won't say so. ^
#122
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Posting as a rather average reader/lurker/contributor I guess.
As someone asked about common members opinions too.
Im pretty sure 99% of ther readers of FT dont care a single moment about this subject. Its rather academical and theoretical for most. People are here too learn, read, ask questions and travel. For the same reason people go to DOs, paying or not, as attendees.
I have never been to a DO (if it wasnt for the pointbreaks at IC Aqaba late April, I would certainly have flown over from Europe to NYC). Hope to DO soon.
If there is one poster I more than anyone like the posts of, I guess its Koko^
I also think his question is very timely and relevant. The question is often more important than the answer. However for the first time I dont share (to me what seems to be) his reply.
I would also give ^^^^^^ to Gleff, Ingy, Tommy, Beaubo, RP and all the others that organize and really do a lot of great work for the FT world.
Im also pretty sure this is not personal from Koko, but that might be difficult to believe when you find your self in the line of fire.
On a side note I have no problems whatsoever if anyone earns money on this. USA is the capital of the free capitalist world after all. And the whole FT scene is no longer some obscure underground world.
I have no problems with commercial activity on FT, especially when all terms are disclosed. Like awardnexus, expertflyer etc. Actually I would have liked to see more of it. Maybe open a commercial forum is the solution? Like it seems to be on MP?
I havent heard about Ingys book before today, but now I really want to read it. I hadnt heard about competitours before yesterday, and now I plan to attend (but website was down today!). Just a few days ago since I learnt about Gleffs award ticketing business. I have advised a few people about it.
Getting info on commercial ideas, is sharing of info too.
An airline lurker here, is after all promoting his comapny as well? Or?
As someone asked about common members opinions too.
Im pretty sure 99% of ther readers of FT dont care a single moment about this subject. Its rather academical and theoretical for most. People are here too learn, read, ask questions and travel. For the same reason people go to DOs, paying or not, as attendees.
I have never been to a DO (if it wasnt for the pointbreaks at IC Aqaba late April, I would certainly have flown over from Europe to NYC). Hope to DO soon.
If there is one poster I more than anyone like the posts of, I guess its Koko^
I also think his question is very timely and relevant. The question is often more important than the answer. However for the first time I dont share (to me what seems to be) his reply.
I would also give ^^^^^^ to Gleff, Ingy, Tommy, Beaubo, RP and all the others that organize and really do a lot of great work for the FT world.
Im also pretty sure this is not personal from Koko, but that might be difficult to believe when you find your self in the line of fire.
On a side note I have no problems whatsoever if anyone earns money on this. USA is the capital of the free capitalist world after all. And the whole FT scene is no longer some obscure underground world.
I have no problems with commercial activity on FT, especially when all terms are disclosed. Like awardnexus, expertflyer etc. Actually I would have liked to see more of it. Maybe open a commercial forum is the solution? Like it seems to be on MP?
I havent heard about Ingys book before today, but now I really want to read it. I hadnt heard about competitours before yesterday, and now I plan to attend (but website was down today!). Just a few days ago since I learnt about Gleffs award ticketing business. I have advised a few people about it.
Getting info on commercial ideas, is sharing of info too.
An airline lurker here, is after all promoting his comapny as well? Or?
#123
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
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I have no problems with commercial activity on FT, especially when all terms are disclosed. Like awardnexus, expertflyer etc. Actually I would have liked to see more of it. Maybe open a commercial forum is the solution? Like it seems to be on MP?
I havent heard about Ingys book before today, but now I really want to read it. I hadnt heard about competitours before yesterday, and now I plan to attend (but website was down today!). Just a few days ago since I learnt about Gleffs award ticketing business. I have advised a few people about it.
Getting info on commercial ideas, is sharing of info too.
An airline lurker here, is after all promoting his comapny as well? Or?
I havent heard about Ingys book before today, but now I really want to read it. I hadnt heard about competitours before yesterday, and now I plan to attend (but website was down today!). Just a few days ago since I learnt about Gleffs award ticketing business. I have advised a few people about it.
Getting info on commercial ideas, is sharing of info too.
An airline lurker here, is after all promoting his comapny as well? Or?
There are lots of travel products that FTers, other entrepreneurs and even big ole' marketing and travel companies have on offer.
But right now commercial solicitations are forbidden by the TOS.
So why not create a commercial offerings forum and allow anyone who wants to charge for a product post about it in there. Anyone clicking on that forum would know that they are leaving the 'commercial free' zone of FT and entering a marketplace.
The other option is to change the TOS to allow commercial solicitations in Community, because that's the de facto situation now.
#124
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Dude. Thank you SO much for wading in here and making my point!!!
So when did Do's go from people breaking bread and swapping frequent flyer tips into seminars where certain attendees are 'owed' per diems and/or actuals and organizers are owed fees!?
And, more to the point, how does that in any way square with the TOS that commercial solicitations are meant to be forbidden on FT (FlyerTalk)?
PS: long time, no see!
So when did Do's go from people breaking bread and swapping frequent flyer tips into seminars where certain attendees are 'owed' per diems and/or actuals and organizers are owed fees!?
And, more to the point, how does that in any way square with the TOS that commercial solicitations are meant to be forbidden on FT (FlyerTalk)?
PS: long time, no see!
Umm, my post simply explained that speaker travel cost defrayment and organizer (large scale) fees have a broad precedent/SOP/justification.
Nowhere did I imply or explicitly mention that they were 'owed' or expected for Seminar-Dos, but simply that it would NOT be unusual or suspect if they were offered.
#125
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There are lots of travel products that FTers, other entrepreneurs and even big ole' marketing and travel companies have on offer.
But right now commercial solicitations are forbidden by the TOS.
So why not create a commercial offerings forum and allow anyone who wants to charge for a product post about it in there. Anyone clicking on that forum would know that they are leaving the 'commercial free' zone of FT and entering a marketplace.
The other option is to change the TOS to allow commercial solicitations in Community, because that's the de facto situation now.
But right now commercial solicitations are forbidden by the TOS.
So why not create a commercial offerings forum and allow anyone who wants to charge for a product post about it in there. Anyone clicking on that forum would know that they are leaving the 'commercial free' zone of FT and entering a marketplace.
The other option is to change the TOS to allow commercial solicitations in Community, because that's the de facto situation now.
That simple suggestion is a constructive solution that can effectively end all of the posting about speculative issues of greedy motives, malintent, ill-informed consumers, conflicts of interest, secretive profits, sweetheart hotel/airfare deals, leveraging public events for private/downstream gain and all the other psuedo-accusations that I have lost track of.
#126
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I attended the Chicago DO seminar and realized that it was fun. If I can, schedule permitting, I will attend again, whether or I get free rooms.
It was great listening to The Pudding Guy (who has since moved on from miles but continues to lead in a different way), Mr.Pickles, beaubo, wanaflyforless. But the best was talking to all and sundry who chose to attend. I also got to meet some who helped me early on with advice and some who had traded with me earlier.
The money raised AFAIK mostly went to charity (SkiAdcock was helping with that) and I think that it was worth the trip for me. It was a FT microcosm, with the hotel and car guys making my head spin with calculations of value.
kokonutz, you have a right to raise the issue if it troubles you but I do not think the seminar DOs violate FT spirit. I must also confess I have not read the TOS in quite a while (if ever). I got about several extra miles reading FT over 3 years and continue to enjoy it, even if my rate of accrual is slowing. If I were to organize one seminar, I would be concerned about the upfront risk that I was taking and I think the registration fee is minor. There is no compulsion to attend this anyway.
It was great listening to The Pudding Guy (who has since moved on from miles but continues to lead in a different way), Mr.Pickles, beaubo, wanaflyforless. But the best was talking to all and sundry who chose to attend. I also got to meet some who helped me early on with advice and some who had traded with me earlier.
The money raised AFAIK mostly went to charity (SkiAdcock was helping with that) and I think that it was worth the trip for me. It was a FT microcosm, with the hotel and car guys making my head spin with calculations of value.
kokonutz, you have a right to raise the issue if it troubles you but I do not think the seminar DOs violate FT spirit. I must also confess I have not read the TOS in quite a while (if ever). I got about several extra miles reading FT over 3 years and continue to enjoy it, even if my rate of accrual is slowing. If I were to organize one seminar, I would be concerned about the upfront risk that I was taking and I think the registration fee is minor. There is no compulsion to attend this anyway.
Last edited by ffI; Mar 21, 2011 at 5:47 am
#127
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Fine, either suggestion would be great,,,,and sadly long overdue in being offered on this thread.
That simple suggestion is a constructive solution that can effectively end all of the posting about speculative issues of greedy motives, malintent, ill-informed consumers, conflicts of interest, secretive profits, sweetheart hotel/airfare deals, leveraging public events for private/downstream gain and all the other psuedo-accusations that I have lost track of.
That simple suggestion is a constructive solution that can effectively end all of the posting about speculative issues of greedy motives, malintent, ill-informed consumers, conflicts of interest, secretive profits, sweetheart hotel/airfare deals, leveraging public events for private/downstream gain and all the other psuedo-accusations that I have lost track of.
And sure, greed is good. Greed works. Let's stop pussyfooting around it and accept that that's the future of seminar Dos. ^
#128
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If you have made up your mind that greed (selfish financial self-interest) has motivated the suppliers of Seminar-DOs, then you can equally characterize the customers of Seminar DOs as equally greedy, since they also perceive their selfish financial /mileage self-interests being satisfied by paying whatever purported exhorbitant, surreptitious price markups that you and DeaconFlyer have conjured up with no proof...and despite full disclosure (absolutely not due you) from gleff, ingy, tommy, wannaflyforless and myself.
So, the 'greedy' suppliers and 'greedy' customers clearly have parallel agendas. If both parties enter into agreements without coercion, it obviates any concerns about rip-offs, financial impropriety, etc.
Overall, whether you intended it or not, your posts have had the impact of generating unwarranted suspicion and distrust upon the reputations (within this thankfully little-read thread) of SMD 1/2 and ORD-DO 1 organizers and speakers who have over 500 firsthand satisfied customers. One has to be a pretty damn good shyster to rip-off that many people and not have even one of them figure it out....so maybe, just maybe- no one is ripping-off and no one is ripped-off.
Until you decide to commit to firsthand research supporting your unproven suppositions, by attending FTU or ORD-DO....I bid you adieu.
#129
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
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Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
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If you have made up your mind that greed (selfish financial self-interest) has motivated the suppliers of Seminar-DOs, then you can equally characterize the customers of Seminar DOs as equally greedy, since they also perceive their selfish financial /mileage self-interests being satisfied by paying whatever purported exhorbitant, surreptitious price markups that you and DeaconFlyer have conjured up with no proof...and despite full disclosure (absolutely not due you) from gleff, ingy, tommy, wannaflyforless and myself.
So, the 'greedy' suppliers and 'greedy' customers clearly have parallel agendas. If both parties enter into agreements without coercion, it obviates any concerns about rip-offs, financial impropriety, etc.
Overall, whether you intended it or not, your posts have had the impact of generating unwarranted suspicion and distrust upon the reputations (within this thankfully little-read thread) of SMD 1/2 and ORD-DO 1 organizers and speakers who have over 500 firsthand satisfied customers. One has to be a pretty damn good shyster to rip-off that many people and not have even one of them figure it out....so maybe, just maybe- no one is ripping-off and no one is ripped-off.
Until you decide to commit to firsthand research supporting your unproven suppositions, by attending FTU or ORD-DO....I bid you adieu.
So, the 'greedy' suppliers and 'greedy' customers clearly have parallel agendas. If both parties enter into agreements without coercion, it obviates any concerns about rip-offs, financial impropriety, etc.
Overall, whether you intended it or not, your posts have had the impact of generating unwarranted suspicion and distrust upon the reputations (within this thankfully little-read thread) of SMD 1/2 and ORD-DO 1 organizers and speakers who have over 500 firsthand satisfied customers. One has to be a pretty damn good shyster to rip-off that many people and not have even one of them figure it out....so maybe, just maybe- no one is ripping-off and no one is ripped-off.
Until you decide to commit to firsthand research supporting your unproven suppositions, by attending FTU or ORD-DO....I bid you adieu.
In any case, I AGREE with you that the service providers are providing a service that many customers seem to want and enjoy.
I'm not trying to shut the seminar do's down. Or even throwing stones at them.
ALL I am saying is: let's call a spade a spade. These are commercial transactions and the TOS should either account for them, or the TB ought to create a commercial forum in which they can continue to exist along with other commercial offers, or (I think most appropriately) both.
#130
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There are quite a few such exceptions to the ToS, most of which are accepted with tacit approval of the mod corp or at the direction of the community host. Remember that TB doesn't enforce or write the ToS so asking them to enforce or change this one seems strange.
#131
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Well now I'm confused. I was applauding your honesty in that it seemed that you were the only expertise provider in this thread who seemed willing to say, yeah, darn it, I am and expert and/or seminar organizer and I think it's fine to expect others to compensate me for my expertise/organizational skills.
1. Please quote the post where I 'expect' anything as a speaker.
2. Please quote the post where I define travel-related per diem/cost defrayment/comped rooms as 'compensation'.
I was crystal clear, despite your attempt at obsfucation, that speakers accepting (NOT expecting) reimbursement in cash or consideration for travel-related expenses (NOT taxable compensation) is a NORM that non-profits may choose to offer and is not considered a commercial transaction.
It is that simple.
#132
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Well now I'm confused. I was applauding your honesty in that it seemed that you were the only expertise provider in this thread who seemed willing to say, yeah, darn it, I am and expert and/or seminar organizer and I think it's fine to expect others to compensate me for my expertise/organizational skills.
* You credit my honesty by contrasting it as lacking in the other speakers/organizers. I joined this thread solely to defend the reputations and motivations of ingy, gleff, tommy, wannaflyforless whom I have substantial firsthand experience with, so if I am honest so are they and if they are dishonest, so am I.
* You characterize me as 'expecting' 'compensation' when I clearly stated I would 'accept' if offered, reimbursement of 'travel-related expenses'. Quite a significant difference, methinks.
I guess I have to get confident enough that my (and others) line of reasoning has been well-understood at this point, because you are committed to having the last word and hoping that a lack of response will validate your position (the old debate tactic of- they stopped defending themselves, so they must be wrong). I'll take my chances that others will judge your ongoing posts with a sense of caution and context provided by myself and others.
No one objects to your trying to create a new TOS for what you consider a new type of Do. So, start a new thread with your motion already. The time for commentary is over. Your TB peers will determine if your concern merits any tangible action.
Move to close thread for lack of any new, especially provable, info that can be contributed at this point.
Last edited by beaubo; Mar 20, 2011 at 4:44 am
#133
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Koko, I applaud your masterful ability to keep to keep the veneer of a civil, pleasant debate TONE while engaging in such damaging and innuendo-driven debate TACTICS.
* You credit my honesty by contrasting it as lacking in the other speakers/organizers. I joined this thread solely to defend the reputations and motivations of ingy, gleff, tommy, wannaflyforless whom I have substantial firsthand experience with, so if I am honest so are they and if they are dishonest, so am I.
* You characterize me as 'expecting' 'compensation' when I clearly stated I would 'accept' if offered, reimbursement of 'travel-related expenses'. Quite a significant difference, methinks.
* You credit my honesty by contrasting it as lacking in the other speakers/organizers. I joined this thread solely to defend the reputations and motivations of ingy, gleff, tommy, wannaflyforless whom I have substantial firsthand experience with, so if I am honest so are they and if they are dishonest, so am I.
* You characterize me as 'expecting' 'compensation' when I clearly stated I would 'accept' if offered, reimbursement of 'travel-related expenses'. Quite a significant difference, methinks.
#134
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Koko-
Umm, my post simply explained that speaker travel cost defrayment and organizer (large scale) fees have a broad precedent/SOP/justification.
Nowhere did I imply or explicitly mention that they were 'owed' or expected for Seminar-Dos, but simply that it would NOT be unusual or suspect if they were offered.
Umm, my post simply explained that speaker travel cost defrayment and organizer (large scale) fees have a broad precedent/SOP/justification.
Nowhere did I imply or explicitly mention that they were 'owed' or expected for Seminar-Dos, but simply that it would NOT be unusual or suspect if they were offered.
#135
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Before the thread gets closed, I wonder if anyone involved can answer what I asked a few posts ago...
What do the sponsors get for their involvement?
In addition...
Are the organizers collecting or keeping meeting points?
Do the speakers have the opportunity to advance their businesses? (Books, travel agencies, Ticket booking services, etc)
To be clear: I think there is nothing wrong with what the organizers of these events are trying to do. I wish I had their entrepreneurial sprint/moxie.
I do think that these events are not a "Do" (in the context they've always been on FlyerTalk)...they are something different. Because they are not "Do's" they need to be treated differently...
What do the sponsors get for their involvement?
In addition...
Are the organizers collecting or keeping meeting points?
Do the speakers have the opportunity to advance their businesses? (Books, travel agencies, Ticket booking services, etc)
To be clear: I think there is nothing wrong with what the organizers of these events are trying to do. I wish I had their entrepreneurial sprint/moxie.
I do think that these events are not a "Do" (in the context they've always been on FlyerTalk)...they are something different. Because they are not "Do's" they need to be treated differently...
Last edited by skofarrell; Mar 20, 2011 at 2:02 pm