What she said.

Ultimately the posting of these threads is CBuzz is a matter for the Moderators in that forum. In the absence of a specific rule allowing or prohibiting these posts then the Senior Mods can step in and interpret the rules.

Do these events add value to Flyertalk? - in my book they do and I thank the organisers that take the time to put them on. If people don't like the commercials they can simply avoid attending.

I raised that very topic here last June in a roundabout way:
Is it appropriate to charge an administrative fee for FT events?

Most that responded on that thread indicated any excess funds would be sent to charitable activities and not go into the organizers pocket. You might want to take a look at it. I raised the topic when a potential $750 of admin fees was being discussed for OzFest in a different forum.

At least four current TalkBoard members did post in it (SkiAdcock, Markie, Spiff, bhatnasx) as well as the Community Director (then a senior mod):

Spiff had indicated in his post the TalkBoard was looking at creating some guidelines.

As a moderator in that forum, I can say we've reviewed those thread in light of the one complaint we've received and our decision to allow those threads to stand remains.

If you have any issues with threads in a particular forum, then the appropriate way to raise concerns about them is to speak directly to the moderators. If you are unhappy with the moderators' decision - having spoken to them about it - then the next stage is to talk to Carol.

To be clear to all, *I* was not that one complaint. And I am not talking about moderation, moderators or anything related here.

I'm suggesting either an alteration to the TOS or the creation of a separate forum for commercial ventures that are not done in the original Do spirit of all pay their own share.

I applaud the initiative of those that are out seeking sponsorships and using them to underwrite their events and then using part of those sponsorships and/or registration fees to fly in their friends. Very clever! Just as I applaud the initiative of using room blocks to get rooms comped for yourself and your friends.

But imho those are not in the spirit of a community Do. Those are something else. So they either need their own forum or they need to be allowed for in the TOS.

Question: would marketing, organization and registration for my seminar 'How to get free travel, lodging and advertising for you and your friends by putting on Frequent Flyer seminars' currently be allowed to stand in the CBuzz forum?

Where and how would you draw the line?

Obviously travel providers discussed in their own forums on FT sponsor stuff. Several airlines or hotel chains come to mind.

What if a FT member owns an Audi dealership, and figures out that if he throws a FT party at the dealership he can write off the food as a business expense? What if the same member offers to pick people up for a FT community dinner at the train station in a shiny new A8 from the dealership?

How many ratholes and how many unintended consequences do you want TB to chase down? And "all of them" is not a reasonable answer in my humble opinion.

Are you asking me? Because that's the same question I am asking. :)

The TOS seems pretty clear: FlyerTalk is not a marketplace and nothing is to be offered for sale or conditioned on an exchange of money or barter.

That zero tolerance policy seems makes it pretty clear that the threads in the OP are not TOS worthy as they are selling attendance at a seminar for cash money plus the promise to book hotel through the event organizer. So the question is: if those events are allowed in spite of the TOS, where does it end?

If the answer (as Markie implies) is 'whenever the CBuzz moderators capriciously decide it does,' well, that's pretty capricious and imho places an unfair burden on those moderators to make the call as to what should be allowed and what should not.

We had a very similar problem with the FTCares process of allowing some charitable plea threads on FT but disallowing others. It's sticky mess once you start down the slippery slope.

Better that the TB/CD think about it now rather than after a mod has disallowed a similar commercial venture and IB potentially ends up in a legal situation over it.

I've been looking for something worthy of my 200th post...

I think the point kokonutz is trying to make here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that there is a benefit received by sponsorships. That benefit can be divyed up in three ways: equally across all attendees (e.g., reducing the participation cost of a meal) or allocated to individuals (e.g., comped rooms or airfare) or profit (e.g., personal gain or charitable contribution).

And extending his thought one step further, the original spirit of a DO was equitable distribution of the costs. So if sponsorships are now SOP, I think he's stating the benefit should be equitably distributed as well. Interpreting things this way, then the all benefits of sponsorship should be shared by all in attendance and not a select few with some connection to the organizers.

I personally have no problem with some benefit set aside for the organizers themselves and for speakers, who are assumed to be attending by invitation of the organizers. If the sponsors are signing up because of the expected attendees, I think the attendees should see appropriate benefit. For example, we get to see the Super Bowl for free (benefit) in exchange for companies (sponsors) advertizing their wares.

I'm too new to FT to comment on the reasonableness of DOs being commercial ventures and who receives any net gains.

Where's the like button?? ;):D

It looks like this has been up before (thanks tom911!) and that everyone agrees.

As a speaker at several FT Dos, this conversation makes me wonder if my efforts are appreciated.
Not only should I give of my time and knowledge in person to the Flyertalk community with 0 financial gain, but it is also wrong if I don't have to pay for my transportation/hotel/food?
(Not my idea for my food/transportation/hotel to be comped, but the gesture is must appreciated when offered.)
Isn't that what matters?

The idea that it is not appropriate for valued speakers to have their expenses paid could threaten the generosity of future speakers freely giving of their time and knowledge. Are speakers valued and does Flyertalk want them to feel valued?
I thought the answer was: When the organizers or speakers gain financially from the event.

Lack of loss ≠ gain/profit

Am I wrong?

In my view, these teaching Dos serve the FT community, similar to how moderators and Talkboard serves the FT community.

My understanding is that Randy paid for moderator dinners - not the moderators themselves.
Does that mean they financially gained from their service to FT?

I believe -- and can certainly be corrected if wrong -- that he also paid for the TalkBoard lunch in PHX a few years ago.

And, at that time, it was indeed Randy who paid for the meal for his volunteer staff and volunteer advisors.

But since the sale of FT, it was not, to be precise, Randy who has paid for the Moderator dinner(s), but Internet Brands.

And now Randy works for a business competitors website with short and long-term business plans, no doubt.

No.

It would be nearsighted, imo, to understand "profit" in a too-narrow, event-specific sense - at least in certain cases. One's business plan may, for example, plan for short-term losses, given the long-term rewards of such, in the interest of long-term profits

Hi, wanaflyforless. Nice to meet you.

I don't know/remember you so don't presume to know whether your efforts are worthy of appreciation or not.

I know that I don't much recognize your handle from the forums I frequent. I do understand that you are quite a mileage runner. Good for you.

But I will say this: there is certainly no need to speak at a commercial seminar in order to share your wisdom and knowledge with the community. In fact, this very forum was created so we can ALL share our wisdom and knowledge without expections of being compensated or having our travel underwritten to do so.

And if you want to attend a 'real' Do on your own dime and share your wisdom and knowledge with other FTers, awesome. That's what Dos are all about!!!!

But expecting to trade your travel and lodging for your expertise is, to me, not in the spirit of community that is FlyerTalk.

I'm sure there are many here less qualified than you to speak on the subject of maximizing miles. There are also many more qualified. Giving AND taking information on an equal footing is the true spirit of FlyerTalk, imho.

Hang on a second. I was a moderator from 2006 till early 2011. For every single moderator meeting, moderators were paid cash to attend and also Randy treated everyone to a very nice dinner. That's more economical gain than any speakers at both the Chicago DO and FT University will every gain. For the FT University, the Sheraton has comped us some rooms and United is flying the speakers for free (they don't even earn miles).

And the vast majority of people would not av a problem with either.

I totally understand where wanaflyforless is coming from. You try to do something nice for the community free of charge and this is the thanks you get.

Rest assured, there's only a very small handful of people that would make a stink about something like this, the community wants it and salutes your efforts.

I am not trading; I am giving.

The value I receive from teaching at FT Dos is primarily the satisfaction of knowing I have helped other FTers.

The first few times I taught I paid my own airfare/hotel/food.

I would never consider the airfare/hotel/food to be worth my time. On the contrary, I do not see those things as anything I have gained; they are of 0 value to me as I would not be there (would not need that transportation/hotel) if I had not been invited to speak.

All voices having equal time to speak does not lead to the most wisdom/knowledge changing hands.

PLEASE support any FT effort that would allow me to hear these people speak so I can learn from them!

I hope I will be permitted to pay for their transportation/lodging to help them know their generosity is appreciated.