rcs85551

Dear TalkBoard members,


as you probably know, the Mileage Run forums can be a blessing, as well as a curse. Many Flyertalkers come here in order to find cheap fares or deals, and certainly, many real bargains could be had over the course of many years.

However, the sharing of deals and loopholes does not only have positive aspects – there are negative aspects as well. Deals tend to disappear quickly once posted out in the open, or they’re simply copied by bloggers who can easily access all the information in the respective threads.

Apart from the negative feedback from quite a substantial number of members, us Mileage Run forum moderators have also discovered another very negative effect – many knowledgeable posters leave the forum within a rolling 2-3 year period because they do not feel comfortable with sharing their deals out in the open anymore. Many members have left Flyertalk for the discussion of Mileage Run related issues since they are uncomfortable with sharing information that even becomes readily accessible to anybody savvy enough to use Google.

Many things regarding this issue have already been discussed with regards to: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...ged-users.html

We are certainly aware of the fact that one will never be able to stop airline lurkers or bloggers from accessing information on Flyertalk. Also, restricting one of the most interesting forums on Flyertalk completely would probably also not be the right solution.

However, we strongly believe that the creation of a second sub-forum to the Mileage Run forum with a closed-off criteria identical to those of the Coupon Connection can provide an environment that many users feel comfortable again to discuss and share ("de-googelize it", as a fellow member put it in the other thread). Based on PMs we have received, a major priority for many users seems to be that despite lurkers possibly gaining access to such a closed-off subforum as well, that they are definitely sharing with active members of the community who have at least posted to a certain extent on the boards.

We humbly submit this issue again for your review – this time it’s us volunteer moderators making the request on behalf of the members. We hope that you’ll be able to reach a positive vote on this matter, at least offering a chance to stop the exodus of long-standing members’ know-how to other forums outside of Flyertalk.

Also on behalf of my fellow Mileage Run forum moderators jpdx, BiziBB and beaubo


rcs85551

GUWonder

A suggestion I support and one that I too hope TB reconsiders.

jpdx

Thank you for expressing our concerns so eloquently, rcs85551!

As one of the moderators of the MR forum, I am convinced that the time has come for a closed-off MR subforum. Thank you for your consideration, members of TB!

BiziBB

We volunteer Mods of Mileage Run have had issues with outbreaks of fear, loathing and hysteria in 2009 and 2010, regarding a few prominent topics or threads. Regulars will be familiar with them. We have had regular and major diversions of topics onto the need for some structural changes in the MR forums, in the interest of preserving deals and/or allowing some freer sharing.

We have been kept busy with a number of issues, but many come back to the tension between sharing and losing deals.

Some kind of step, in fact any step to a structural experiment in a members-only access, could be a chance to test out what many people have requested.
Not necessarily for all deals, but just for delicate topics (which were done in riddles and tricks until now, in the interests of preservation!).

Since there are so many differing opinions, I think that this needs to be framed as recognising a problem, first, then considering if no action is better than some actions.

I recommend that you peruse the great sharing, givng, encrypting, learning, helping, doing and stealing/pirating thread in Mileage Run Discussion.
It is almost 5200 posts now and the recent losses of the Trick due to the piracy of the trick (and its almost immediate patching/closing by UA) is an example of where FT has failed to provide what many have requrested.

Mileage Run mods have been occupied with these problem for a long time but we just clean up the mess, but we see the frustration and disappointment come through very often, but are bound by the limitations of the current structure.

It is the users of the forum who have invested a lot of commitment and time, who lose when the valued posters who share a lot of deals or techniques for deals, desert the forum or stop sharing special fares and opportunities.

Check the recent pages of the trick thread to see people suggesting sharing off the forum.

We are all probably aware of secret deals being shared amongst friends; the lack of any special subforum (even just a specialist thread like a 'savings lounge' for loyal FTers) for tricks or special fares has meant that each major issue on the FT Mileage Run forums eventually leads to less sharing and fewer people generously sharing.

If you were a cardiologist and you noticed a problem with someone's heart, would you just leave the problem rather than try to treat it? That is what I infer from reading the discussion of the matter in the Mileage Run Discussion forum. At its heart,FT is all about finding, sharing, learning and doing deals to get miles, so we need to retain a place for certain discussions which the MR forums are great for. Please look at the problem and try to help with some action from TB to deal with it.


Thanks to all contributors (and former contributors) to Mileage Run.

It is sad to see MR forums decline. I hope that you can add your own perspective here on options to convince TalkBoard and/or Randy and the owner of this forum that the health and wellbeing of Mileage Run forums is an issue worth fighting for.

Special thanks to rcs85551 and jpdx who have been taking this up in person at a recent moderator function, last weekend. It must have been frustrating, not being able to get this thrashed out.
I wish that our request to discuss it as an agenda item had been successful. Hopefully it cannot be ignored now that it is posted here on TalkBoard.

Regards,
BiziBB, Moderator, Mileage Run

iolairemcfadden

I understand the desire for a sub form, however I do wonder if you will loose your community growth along the way. As a regular reader with very few posts, I seriously think if the quality information is posted in hidden forums its its very likely that the site will loose my interest quickly.

FlyerTalk's lively discussion - often 500+ posts - helps to drive interest among new readers, as well as older readers.

Even if I can not identify how to do the fuel dumps, its still very interesting to think about what people are doing - and it increases knowledge within the community. Hopefully with that knowledge, at some point a reader like myself will stumble upon something useful the the community and add some value.

The best was to explain this is to say that I'm not going to spend a lot of time on FlyerTalk if the most of the posts I can read are along the lines of "what is the best airline program if you live near DCA" and "help me find a 20,000 mile mileage run out of DCA for this weekend for $100...."

Bonnerbl

I urge the FT Board to require an explicit statement of the criteria to join before approving this request. The current thread operates as a secret society IMHO contrary to the "community" of FT. Code words, unwillingness to help one figure it out (yes I -DID- print out the entire thread and try to piece together what was being done, several times, to no avail. Requests for clarification were not productive.), and not at all newbie friendly. Will the closed sub-thread perpetuate the past or will it ensure that the thread will reflect the FT "community" sharing spirit?

DBCme

Glad this is being discussed in great detail.

So "seasoned" folks would be "in" on this subforum.
New folks would need to demonstrate a commitment of participation before being welcomed in to the subforum.

So this feels much like Coupon Connection, with it's qualifying (albeit minimal) requirements to post. I guess my concern is some "newbies" come to FT not because they heard of coupon connection, but because of a mistake fare they heard about from a friend, or a WSJ article talking about how FT is the place to be for deals and airline info. If we suddenly block a big reason why folks came in the first place, might it turn them off alltogether? Might we prevent ordinary folk from becoming fanboys/girls? Will our species eventually die off?

Also, who are we really concerned about? Not the newbies! They just ask dumb questions, as many of us did pre-500 posts. It's the airlines and hotel lurkers, and other spoilers that have changed our community. Its my belief that some of these rotten apples have well north of any minimum post criteria we may set. The world didn't just find out about FT last year..

In summary: Should we be looking at other creative means to determine eligibility? Some relationship with date joined/average posts per month/ and (big one), some QA test that is randomly performed by moderators or other assigned? Just my .02.

Again, thanks for continuing the discussion.

tcook052

I for one have no problem whatsoever with the steps the mod squad is proposing and commend them for stepping forward and offering their opinions on the matter. It is time for TB to revist the issue and consider making changes to how MR Deals forum is accessed by members.

GUWonder

I can understand that concern -- especially as Mileage Run was one of those forums that kept my interest level in FT higher than would otherwise be the case -- but I also understand that the current arrangement has lead to deal discussions going underground in various ways. The result of that being the more deal-plugged in members are probably not as active on FT as they could be again and there is at least some loss of (access to) expertise when it comes to valuable things other than just an extraordinarily good airfare.

Time spent PMing, emailing, and participating via other channels than FT is less time spent contributing openly on FT for the benefit of other active FT contributors on FT even on topics besides extraordinarily good airfares.

This approach suggested by the Mileage Run moderators won't turn back time and solve all of the problems related to deals closing as fast as they now do with discussions subsequently going deeper underground or into ever more esoteric shop-talk; but this approach seems pretty harmless to me with more upside for more FTers than the current "decline" of the Mileage Run forum(s) with ever deeper underground and esoteric communication.

jupper

I understand, and support, the need for a sort of "advanced MR techniques" forum, which understandably needs some more restrictions.

However, I would also suggest that with moving a lot of those intended discussions into a closed of part of FT, that subforum also keeps in mind that there will be aspirants in the MR forum, who could be of great value to the community. So I would suggest to also make sure there's information about "what is a fuel dump" and similar terms as a sticky/FAQ in the open part of the MR forum.

If topics are being discussed which are deemed "sensitive" and subsequently moved into the closed section, that should be done only under certain rules/circumstances etc.

In the long run, would the creation solve more problems then it could cause ?
(I don't know, at times I think it might, but then again, I've been a newbie in several areas before, and closed off sections are serious put-offs)

rcs85551

That's exactly the reason why we believe that closing off the entire Mileage Run forum would be a mistake.

However, we cannot help but notice that any growth there is from new members is currently easily compensated by the loss of long-time and very knowledgeable members, who choose not to participate in the Mileage Run forum anymore since everything is accessible through Google and even to non-registered members.

That's exactly one of the reasons why us Mileage Run moderators are asking for this additional sub-forum. The current fuel surcharge "lounge" thread is virtually impossible to moderate, and all the cryptic language is not very user-friendly.

Having a sub-forum that is not as easily accessible, and most importantly, not spidered by the search engines, is our vision to bring back a more user-friendly environment to discuss those "hot topics" in a better way than it is today.

snod08

I have similar thoughts as Bonnerbl. I have tried reading the fuel-lounge thread. It was just way too complicated. As a result I dont read that thread anymore.

Well, it is indeed exciting to see the possibility of a closed MR-forum sub-thread. I think a lot of people can be helped.

I also feel that yes, there should definitely be a minimum number of posts required before access is given to that forum. Certain number of posts demonstrate commitment to FT.

As someone said upthread, as newbies, the first couple of hundred posts are spent on asking newbie questions. But, later, that person becomes a valuable resource.

rcarteraz

I am new and I understand why some would want to close of this new area to newbies such as myself. Now I have asked for help in constructing MR's and finding lower fares but I am doing my own work trying to learn this as well. There's a lot of information out there and I want to absorb it all. The only thing I ask is that if you do close of an area of the MR forum is that you don't make it too hard to be able to get access to it, i.e. six months membership and 500+ posts. Also, an idea maybe after the post has been active for an x amount of time it is moved into the open MR forum. I am open to the idea but I just don't want to be shout out. I want to respect those who have been here for a long time but I want the opportunity to become one as well. Thanks.

Mike1625

I am sort of torn on this issue. Half the time I am on the site I am logged in, and half the time I am not. It would not be hard to train myself to be logged in more often.

When I log on, mileage run is the first place I go. I have tried to add in to this forum and share when I have knowledge to share, but I must honestly admit that in this forum I take more than I give. My knowledge and skills tend to be able to give more in other forums. I find that people on flyertalk are very kind, helpful and willing to share information. But I find that to be least true in mileage run.

I would gladly support a side forum with restrictions for entry if inside that sub forum people were more willing to share information. Like another person mentioned, I have been an active member. I only travel on my dime, and while I wish I could travel much more, I am somewhat limited. I would love to learn how to dump fuel, I get the general concept, but never understand the cryptic messages of exactly how it is getting done. This is such a frustration for me. It feels like that is a party going on, and I got a front row seat to watch it, from the other side of a fence.

In the end, count my vote as for the sub forum, with hope that it will be a great resource for everyone who meets the rules to have access to it.

I'll also take this moment to thank all those who contribute so much to this incredible resource and in particular to the moderators who volunteer their time to make it even better.

Mike

(quick side note ..... my blog mentioned in my signature is not a home for short term deals on flights.... it is information for my friends who are casual travelers to earn ff miles and things like that, click on link and see .... i only post a time or two a week, so please don't count my vote as that of the enemy.)

seanthepilot

Flyertalk has changed. It's not a bad thing, but it is true.

In my opinion, the Mileage Run forum participants view is well stated by the moderators posts above. I'd like to thank the moderators for this request, and the style in which it is presented.

Having a "Level 2" or a "seperate sub-forum" will only add value to the Forum. I am 100% in favor of the proposal and would encourage the Talk Board to APPROVE it, please & thank you!