RichMSN

I'm reading the question posed by Carol in the OP, am reading the last half-dozen responses, and am shaking my head.

The way TalkBoard avoids these kind of things is to have members who will not get involved in that kind of drama.

I think TalkBoard got it half right. They passed an amendment that will make TalkBoard better. But the drama and mudslinging that came out and is coming out again makes TB and FT look bad, IMO.

bdschobel

Oh, please. "Mudslinging"? Really? I merely described what happened. If anyone sees an inaccuracy, they are free to correct me.

Bruce

RichMSN

2 reasons why this is a problem:

(1) You're publicly blaming a TB member for whatever inefficiencies are (were) part of the process. If a TB member has 14 days to vote, how can you publicly blast that person for taking the 14 days?

(2) You're also the TB President and one could infer that you're speaking for the entire TalkBoard.

A body of 9 is always going to have one (or more) seen as a contrarian, an outsider, or something else.

I think "bringing everything to a grinding halt" is overly dramatic, myself. I'm a fan of the new amendment to consider a measure passed or defeated once decided, but in the scheme of things, how long can someone realistically delay things?

bdschobel

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but you haven't endured what TalkBoard members have endured for the past couple of years. I already described it. Unnecessary voting delays are just the tip of the iceberg. But why are we debating this? My point is that some of the disagreements were caused by the behavior of a single member. Others may see things differently, and they are free to say so. But I was there and have reported what I saw.

Bruce

RichMSN

You've presented this as fact. Another TB member during that time seems to disagree with you.

As far as a single member causing strife -- been there, done that, have the t-shirt. But I am not sure our issue ever became so public and ever made the TalkBoard look so poorly in the eyes of those of us on the outside.

bdschobel

I do not understand why telling the general membership what is going on within TalkBoard makes TalkBoard "look so poorly in the eyes of those of us on the outside." That conclusion is on you. There can be no doubt -- yes, this is a fact -- that one member (1) consistently votes long after everyone else has voted, thereby delaying implementation of various proposals, (2) missed one critical vote entirely (and this was explained in detail at the time) and (3) engages in extreme pedantry, forcing everyone else to act like obvious typos and the like are matters of great substance. If that behavior is acceptable to you, then more power to you. It is not acceptable to me, and I know that other TalkBoard members agree, whether or not they say so publicly. You may not like the fact that this matter became public, but I have little use for TalkBoard's secrecy in the first place. If our deliberations were public, then my attitude would be perfectly understandable to one and all.

I have no desire to pretend that everybody is getting along beautifully when that impression would be false. The truth is the truth.

Bruce

RichMSN

I have no desire to continue this back and forth, so I'll say one more thing and then you can have the last word.

We had a similar thing happen 3 years ago. A person waited to vote until the last day every vote because of a perceived slight.

Annoying? Yes. The end of the world? No. The voting period is only 2 weeks long.

And frankly, that's too long. It's 2015. Even travelers should be able to vote in a week. I said that before and was shouted down. I still think a week is enough.

I do think public complaining about a fellow TB member is unseemly, though, but like you said, that's on me.

bdschobel

I don't need the last word. Feel free to respond to me.

As I made perfectly clear multiple times, the fact that this member waited until the last minute to vote time after time was just the tip of the iceberg. Enough said about that.

I have no idea why complaining about disruptive, delaying behavior should be considered unseemly. This member caused considerable problems. Many TalkBoard members were obviously furious. Why should that be a secret? Why do you believe that false or artificial comity is so commendable? We had problems this year. Everyone could see that. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. What would be the point?

Bruce

bdschobel

Just for the record, I totally agree with you. Our current proposal to permit (or suggest) that the Community Director act immediately upon being informed that a motion will pass is a compromise alternative to merely shortening the voting period.

Back to the original topic, the Supreme Court of the United States -- interestingly, also with nine members -- has intense and very public disagreements. The justices from time to time openly insult each other in their opinions. No one, to my knowledge, says that such disagreements reflect poorly on the Supreme Court. It just goes with the territory. They deal with it. And so does TalkBoard.

Bruce

SkiAdcock

Oh good grief. Enough already. Seriously? After saying in another question for the candidates that we're not the US Senate you're now going to try to talk to compare TB to SCOTUS? We're NOT the Senate or SCOTUS. We're just a voluntary advisory board to the CommunityDirector of an internet bulletin board.

There is nothing wrong w/ disagreements on topics, but not individuals. Indeed, FT TOS says:

12.2 Avoid Getting Personal

If you have a difference of opinion with another member, challenge the idea — NOT the person. Getting personal with another member is not allowed. Personal attacks, insults, baiting and flaming will not be tolerated.

BTW - it's actually against TB guidelines for public sniping at each other. One would think that all TB members, especially officers, would try to abide by the guidelines. @:-)

C. Responsibilities

i. TalkBoard Members
a. All TalkBoard members are FlyerTalkers first and foremost. TalkBoard members are expected to conform to the Terms of Service and conduct themselves with civility in a spirit of cooperation for the betterment of FlyerTalk. Personal attacks, disrespectfully calling other TalkBoard members’ motives into question and petty bickering and sniping will not be tolerated.

There is a massive difference between having healthy discussions/disagreements on actual motions/suggestions for TB & publicly sniping/attacking other TB members.

As someone who has followed TB for many years, this year was the worst in terms of public sniping. I get frustration (and yes I was pretty frustrated too), but I don't see that any TB member who went after another TB member publicly on something other than the motion did anything that contributed to the greater good of FT or FTers, but instead just allowed their personal frustrations to overtake their common sense, decorum & responsibility of being TB members.

What's also sad/ironic/disgusting is that of the 8 questions that have been presented to the TB candidates, THIS one is the one that is causing the most disagreement - which given the topic, 'nuff said. Given that all 8 candidates answered the original question, I think we should let this thread end at this point.

BTW - regarding an earlier comment re: what TB had to endure, refugees, folk w/ cancer, (fill in the blank) have to endure things. Let's keep things in perspective.


Cheers.

CMK10

For what it's worth, I agree entirely with everything Bruce has said and like it or not, it IS fact. I will admit that I should have been better about not letting it bother me and about behaving better in the public forums and speaking with more civility, but the fact is that these tensions are based on the behavior of a single member who acted in exactly the way he described.

SkiAdcock

And as RichMSN said, we dealt with something similar a few years ago but didn't feel the need to have a hanging in the public forum re: the TB member.

As both a FTer and a TB member, I expect better of TB members - and moving forward to the next TB, hope that TB members handle differences better & remain on the actual motions/topics.

Cheers. Sharon

bdschobel

There is no public hanging or anything like that. But since a member asked about TalkBoard tensions, it would be weird for me not to explain the source of those tensions. This is not some polite social club where everyone has to pretend to get along with everyone else. We had real problems this year, attributable in large part to the very disruptive behavior of one member. That's what happened. The question was asked, and I answered it. If anyone believes that I got it wrong, then correct me.

Bruce

bdschobel

I do not believe that the friction during 2015 among TalkBoard members, mostly in our private forum, had any effect whatsoever on the friendliness or tolerance of FlyerTalk in general. These things are really quite independent of each other. TalkBoard's problems have not made FlyerTalk itself unfriendly or intolerant. The basic premise of the question seems questionable to me.

Bruce

hhoope01

I don't think the discussions in the private forum are really at the heart of this question. The issue is more with the friction in the public forum which is seen by any member of FT that reads through this forum. And I do believe that others will take the "tone" the discussions here as acceptable and maybe even the norm elsewhere. As a TB member (and in your case a Moderator as well), how you frame your posts is seen by others and they will emulate that. (And yes I know that Moderators are members too, but the fact is, even when you aren't posting as a "moderator" or a "TB member", the title still shows and I do believe that will affect what other members see as normal posting etiquette.)

I have no problem with a "heated" discussion as long as the "heat" comes from the issue at hand, not from name calling, snarky responses, etc. If we can be civil and respectful with our discussions (even while disagreeing) then maybe that will help lead to the same type of discussions in other forums as well. (And please don't think that I am trying to say that you are being snarky or disrespectful at all, I'm just trying to make a specific point and trying to NOT say this is about you or your posting.)