Question 5: Do you believe FlyerTalk is too unfriendly?
Nov 5, 2013, 7:16 am
#1
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Question 5: Do you believe FlyerTalk is too unfriendly?
Do you believe FlyerTalk is too unfriendly? Some of you mentioned snark as part of your platform. What ideas do you have to change it? Can Talkboard make an impact in this area?
Nov 5, 2013, 9:53 am
#2
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As a whole, no. Hell, we have a forum called Community Buzz which fosters a sense of community. And a lot of the smaller forums are very welcoming of newer people and questions. However, there IS a lot of snark and some forums (UA, DL etc.) are very unfriendly. I cannot imagine trying to come into some forums as a new member. And then there's this thread which frankly disgusts me:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...ree-forum.html
Thankfully, I think those are still in the minority but I do worry. Something has to be done.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...ree-forum.html
Thankfully, I think those are still in the minority but I do worry. Something has to be done.
Nov 5, 2013, 3:14 pm
#3
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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There are a lot of unfriendly bits in FT.
At first as a newbie one could sense it, and later, as a seasoned vet, one could have people who do not like them for this or that reason. It seems to linger. A lot of times it's all misunderstandings, but I think it's our job to help lessen those and make FT an all around 'nicer' environment by example.
When I first joined FT I will say that I felt a lot of the "well we know and you don't, so you are out and we are in" thing. I also felt that many in here seemed like elitists. Personally, I do not like nor agree with the premise of elitists or entitled/exclusive types of people but I do try to deal with them as fairly as anyone when I am in their company--much in the same way one might try to act fine at a party when wearing a pair of new jeans that are a a few sizes too small
. You just gotta deal with it for the while. But over the years I have found that a lot of that type of mentality seems to have left us, and that is a good thing. Of course some agree that it got replaced with a lot of ego and jealousy... and a lot of snide and rude posts and mean people lurking about.
In the world of MSing (manufactured spending) there's a lot of that and I see it all the time. I see it a lot in the threads I mentioned I frequent and while we all know the typed words in internet forums may be read very differently than the 'voice' of the actual person, it is often clear when someone is being downright nasty.
Interestingly enough, now I find that mostly this has to do with the fact that a lot of the people doing it seem very new to this stuff, and as such, are not seasoned or savvy with the ways to be or the methods to handle issues. They doubt everything and so when a seasoned person mentions something, they take it as a directive and lash out, tending to not believe or now even might begin to DISLIKE that person right off the bat. Too hot headed. In addition to this, newer and less active members feel intimidated and may get jumped on so they post less than they should. So this great divide exists and I see it in many threads I visit. I am not afraid to speak my mind so it affects me less now but I still see it (I'm also one of those people who answers all the PMs I get so I dunno, maybe I'm different
)
But unlike those who may have made me sense some discomfort when I fist started, I would not want to say something like, "well, you don't know so get lost," I would instead want to try to help these people and bring them up to speed as it were. I try almost daily to quell the bad apple feeling I see and to make it so people can get along. I try to do it with humor but okay some of that is hokey and I admit that. But some of it works too! After all if you cant have fun with this stuff, why even be here!
What I am saying is that yes, there is a mean streak in FT, and I would like to promote a community where we could re-educate people who get mean first or are new but unwilling to listen or care. I would like to show them methods that work for deals even if not giving up a deal in itself, or to get them to people who do know answers even if we do not. I believe what makes FT work is the notion that we share ideas and listen to what new and older users have to add as a whole and stop looking at post count as a means of validation. Most of all I think it is necessary to help show people how to pace themselves in the miles and points earning and burning world.
I wish it was lessened and while I tend to make my own mistakes (am often misunderstood for offending people when I was making a joke but I admit those instances and have dealt with them), I find some keep at it. Bickering, jabbing, hating on others.
I hope that if elected, I can by example help to foster a better attitude, approach, mindset, style, and even possibly a little grace. Not that I'm an expert but I know myself to be a pretty decent guy and if people get to know that they tend to agree.
MM
At first as a newbie one could sense it, and later, as a seasoned vet, one could have people who do not like them for this or that reason. It seems to linger. A lot of times it's all misunderstandings, but I think it's our job to help lessen those and make FT an all around 'nicer' environment by example.
When I first joined FT I will say that I felt a lot of the "well we know and you don't, so you are out and we are in" thing. I also felt that many in here seemed like elitists. Personally, I do not like nor agree with the premise of elitists or entitled/exclusive types of people but I do try to deal with them as fairly as anyone when I am in their company--much in the same way one might try to act fine at a party when wearing a pair of new jeans that are a a few sizes too small
. You just gotta deal with it for the while. But over the years I have found that a lot of that type of mentality seems to have left us, and that is a good thing. Of course some agree that it got replaced with a lot of ego and jealousy... and a lot of snide and rude posts and mean people lurking about. In the world of MSing (manufactured spending) there's a lot of that and I see it all the time. I see it a lot in the threads I mentioned I frequent and while we all know the typed words in internet forums may be read very differently than the 'voice' of the actual person, it is often clear when someone is being downright nasty.
Interestingly enough, now I find that mostly this has to do with the fact that a lot of the people doing it seem very new to this stuff, and as such, are not seasoned or savvy with the ways to be or the methods to handle issues. They doubt everything and so when a seasoned person mentions something, they take it as a directive and lash out, tending to not believe or now even might begin to DISLIKE that person right off the bat. Too hot headed. In addition to this, newer and less active members feel intimidated and may get jumped on so they post less than they should. So this great divide exists and I see it in many threads I visit. I am not afraid to speak my mind so it affects me less now but I still see it (I'm also one of those people who answers all the PMs I get so I dunno, maybe I'm different
)But unlike those who may have made me sense some discomfort when I fist started, I would not want to say something like, "well, you don't know so get lost," I would instead want to try to help these people and bring them up to speed as it were. I try almost daily to quell the bad apple feeling I see and to make it so people can get along. I try to do it with humor but okay some of that is hokey and I admit that. But some of it works too! After all if you cant have fun with this stuff, why even be here!
What I am saying is that yes, there is a mean streak in FT, and I would like to promote a community where we could re-educate people who get mean first or are new but unwilling to listen or care. I would like to show them methods that work for deals even if not giving up a deal in itself, or to get them to people who do know answers even if we do not. I believe what makes FT work is the notion that we share ideas and listen to what new and older users have to add as a whole and stop looking at post count as a means of validation. Most of all I think it is necessary to help show people how to pace themselves in the miles and points earning and burning world.
I wish it was lessened and while I tend to make my own mistakes (am often misunderstood for offending people when I was making a joke but I admit those instances and have dealt with them), I find some keep at it. Bickering, jabbing, hating on others.
I hope that if elected, I can by example help to foster a better attitude, approach, mindset, style, and even possibly a little grace. Not that I'm an expert but I know myself to be a pretty decent guy and if people get to know that they tend to agree.
MM
Nov 5, 2013, 7:58 pm
#4
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Flyertalk is representative of the world at large. Some people are friendly; others are not. Some people welcome newcomers; others don't. Some people tolerate unsophisticated questions from newbies -- and maybe even answer them! Others provide snarky responses. Flyertalk has the same mix of people that you find everywhere, but it's worse here in at least two respects: anonymity and distance. When people don't know who you really are and may be thousands of miles away, then it's easy (or easier) for some people to drop several layers of civilization and behave rudely. That's inherent in internet bulletin boards. We'll never completely eliminate it.
As a moderator for a very long time, I've been dealing with this problem -- and I acknowledge that it is a problem -- in several ways. First of all, I answer lots of dopey questions, either publicly or privately, trying to set a good example myself. Secondly, I ask especially rude people to tone it down. If they don't improve, then I start editing and even deleting their posts. Nobody wants to spend his (or her) time writing a clever insult only to see it disappear minutes later!
But we need to remember that Flyertalk is not utopia. We'll never eliminate all snarkiness, no matter how hard we try. Some antisocial behavior seems to be inherent in human beings as a group, and all Flyertalk participants seem to be human. So we must accept some of this. We can discourage but not eliminate unwelcoming behavior.
Bruce
As a moderator for a very long time, I've been dealing with this problem -- and I acknowledge that it is a problem -- in several ways. First of all, I answer lots of dopey questions, either publicly or privately, trying to set a good example myself. Secondly, I ask especially rude people to tone it down. If they don't improve, then I start editing and even deleting their posts. Nobody wants to spend his (or her) time writing a clever insult only to see it disappear minutes later!
But we need to remember that Flyertalk is not utopia. We'll never eliminate all snarkiness, no matter how hard we try. Some antisocial behavior seems to be inherent in human beings as a group, and all Flyertalk participants seem to be human. So we must accept some of this. We can discourage but not eliminate unwelcoming behavior.
Bruce
Nov 6, 2013, 1:36 am
#5
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Snark/Unfriendliness
Hi All,
Unfortunately, at times, snark and an unfriendliness in some of the FT threads is far too apparent with FTers being attacked for a variety of reasons. At the same time, there are some who post (troll?) particular statements/comments/ideas merely to provoke other FTers.
I agree with bdschobel that internet forums and the level of anonymity it can provide seems to invite some to engage in behavior that would not be acceptable in person.
I try to make an effort to help others and point them in the right direction. At times, getting sucked into the "mob mentality" can be far too easy.
I think it's also important to acknowledge the tremendous amount of helpful information and the FTers here who DO help others and the community at large.
rw
Unfortunately, at times, snark and an unfriendliness in some of the FT threads is far too apparent with FTers being attacked for a variety of reasons. At the same time, there are some who post (troll?) particular statements/comments/ideas merely to provoke other FTers.
I agree with bdschobel that internet forums and the level of anonymity it can provide seems to invite some to engage in behavior that would not be acceptable in person.
I try to make an effort to help others and point them in the right direction. At times, getting sucked into the "mob mentality" can be far too easy.
I think it's also important to acknowledge the tremendous amount of helpful information and the FTers here who DO help others and the community at large.
rw
Nov 6, 2013, 10:48 am
#6
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Flyertalk is representative of the world at large. Some people are friendly; others are not. Some people welcome newcomers; others don't. Some people tolerate unsophisticated questions from newbies -- and maybe even answer them! Others provide snarky responses. Flyertalk has the same mix of people that you find everywhere, but it's worse here in at least two respects: anonymity and distance. When people don't know who you really are and may be thousands of miles away, then it's easy (or easier) for some people to drop several layers of civilization and behave rudely. That's inherent in internet bulletin boards. We'll never completely eliminate it.
As a moderator for a very long time, I've been dealing with this problem -- and I acknowledge that it is a problem -- in several ways. First of all, I answer lots of dopey questions, either publicly or privately, trying to set a good example myself. Secondly, I ask especially rude people to tone it down. If they don't improve, then I start editing and even deleting their posts. Nobody wants to spend his (or her) time writing a clever insult only to see it disappear minutes later!
But we need to remember that Flyertalk is not utopia. We'll never eliminate all snarkiness, no matter how hard we try. Some antisocial behavior seems to be inherent in human beings as a group, and all Flyertalk participants seem to be human. So we must accept some of this. We can discourage but not eliminate unwelcoming behavior.
Bruce
As a moderator for a very long time, I've been dealing with this problem -- and I acknowledge that it is a problem -- in several ways. First of all, I answer lots of dopey questions, either publicly or privately, trying to set a good example myself. Secondly, I ask especially rude people to tone it down. If they don't improve, then I start editing and even deleting their posts. Nobody wants to spend his (or her) time writing a clever insult only to see it disappear minutes later!
But we need to remember that Flyertalk is not utopia. We'll never eliminate all snarkiness, no matter how hard we try. Some antisocial behavior seems to be inherent in human beings as a group, and all Flyertalk participants seem to be human. So we must accept some of this. We can discourage but not eliminate unwelcoming behavior.
Bruce
You hit the nail on the head on all points ^ and I commend you for being proactive in your approach ^^ but (and no offense meant
, moderators all have different styles of moderation and perhaps if your approach was more universally applied where moderators not just deleted a snarky post but also looked at posts such as "do a search" (and etc) and notified the poster that while the intent of searching is to find answers, simply telling another poster to do a search doesn't work as (for example) they may not know how to do a search (yeah, I know it sounds silly but still ).You are also right that "it's a part of life" in the F/t world and will be darn near impossible to eliminate but while there are posters who take the time to explain things ^, those who don't and/or simply "attack the newbie" (or even an existing member who is running across an issue for the first time but has been discussed elsewhere) need to be spoken to by the forum moderator. It's not perfect and it will never be but that's how I see it
I'd also like to find a way to encourage more members to use the report bad post function to report "unfriendly" posts but that's a leading the horse to water situation
Nov 7, 2013, 11:31 am
#7
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
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It's the Internet. Of COURSE it is unfriendly!
Even in the false utopia of Milepoint, specifically built to be a friendlier version of FlyerTalk you can see snottiness. And that place is a little backwater town compared to the big city of FlyerTalk.
I think the Ambassador program has been a good way to combat meanness.
I think the mods do a good job of smacking around people who are all douche all the time.
Now if only we could figure out a way to deal with mean, sarcastic mods! <ducking>
Even in the false utopia of Milepoint, specifically built to be a friendlier version of FlyerTalk you can see snottiness. And that place is a little backwater town compared to the big city of FlyerTalk.
I think the Ambassador program has been a good way to combat meanness.
I think the mods do a good job of smacking around people who are all douche all the time.
Now if only we could figure out a way to deal with mean, sarcastic mods!
<ducking>
Nov 7, 2013, 4:33 pm
#8
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
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It's the Internet. Of COURSE it is unfriendly!
Even in the false utopia of Milepoint, specifically built to be a friendlier version of FlyerTalk you can see snottiness. And that place is a little backwater town compared to the big city of FlyerTalk.
I think the Ambassador program has been a good way to combat meanness.
I think the mods do a good job of smacking around people who are all douche all the time.
Now if only we could figure out a way to deal with mean, sarcastic mods! <ducking>
Even in the false utopia of Milepoint, specifically built to be a friendlier version of FlyerTalk you can see snottiness. And that place is a little backwater town compared to the big city of FlyerTalk.
I think the Ambassador program has been a good way to combat meanness.
I think the mods do a good job of smacking around people who are all douche all the time.
Now if only we could figure out a way to deal with mean, sarcastic mods!
<ducking>Bruce
Nov 7, 2013, 9:56 pm
#9
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Generally no, however as with any semi anonymous internet forum you will get some individuals who are.
There are some sections with a significant number of 'regulars' who by virtue of their familiarity can be less welcoming and tolerant of newcomers.
There are some sections with a significant number of 'regulars' who by virtue of their familiarity can be less welcoming and tolerant of newcomers.
Nov 8, 2013, 8:40 am
#10
Join Date: Mar 2009
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I believe FT is too unfriendly to newbies, for those that aren't newbies have choosen to stay and whethered the storm. For sure if someone is clueless, as we all once were, and asks a question leave it to some FTer to blast him with a "do a search!!!!" post. We need less of this and more wiki's to be honest. The search function on FT is difficult and cumbersome for me who I consider myself a slightly above average tech guy, but I can't find things even. When newbies don't have readily available wikis in easy to read information (not 200 page long threads) then they may take some time to read them.
In short yes I feel we can and should be more welcoming to newbies. As for the veteran posters on here I feel we are pretty good to each other really.
In short yes I feel we can and should be more welcoming to newbies. As for the veteran posters on here I feel we are pretty good to each other really.
Nov 8, 2013, 10:54 am
#11
Moderator, Hertz; FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Nah, Only United with the devaluations of award tickets
But in all seriousness, I don’t think so. So many people visit FT and overall I see a positive attitude all around. With help on visiting almost every destination in the world while traveling almost any airline, I think the community overall is quite helpful. I’ve seen help with visa questions to help finding the right camera gear. I received positive feedback from many members regarding my posts, and looking at the others posting, the information is very helpful and positive. Of course, being such a large community you will receive the occasional negative comment, but what usually follows is some other FTer helping out the original poster.
But in all seriousness, I don’t think so. So many people visit FT and overall I see a positive attitude all around. With help on visiting almost every destination in the world while traveling almost any airline, I think the community overall is quite helpful. I’ve seen help with visa questions to help finding the right camera gear. I received positive feedback from many members regarding my posts, and looking at the others posting, the information is very helpful and positive. Of course, being such a large community you will receive the occasional negative comment, but what usually follows is some other FTer helping out the original poster.