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-   -   LH Takeover: Your fears for LX Travelclub? - Everybody post please (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/swiss-international-air-lines/458847-lh-takeover-your-fears-lx-travelclub-everybody-post-please.html)

f4free Aug 3, 05 8:01 am

LH Takeover: Your fears for LX Travelclub? - Everybody post please
 
Hey everybody. At the Flyertalk Do in Geneva, we found out that input from Flyertalk would actually really help LX TC management to support their negotiations with LH regarding what will happen to Swiss Travelclub.

I am starting this thread to gather all the different key reasons why we all are a member of Travelclub, and what we are afraid will happen with a possible integration into M&M. Anything that can substantiate statements such as amount of revenue, amount of flights, etc. will surely help.

Even if somebody already posted the same feelings you have, post them anyway! Let's try to get as many FTers to post here as possible!

A summary of this thread would then hopefully help LX TC management in saving some of the key aspects of the program.

f4free Aug 3, 05 8:07 am

Minimum miles on all fares NEED to stay!
 
Let me start it off:

1) I am afraid that LX Travelclub will no longer exist, and everybody will be integrated into M&M the way it is now.

2) The most important benefits I value a lot now, and that I am most afraid will disappear, are:

- 100% miles on all fares
- 1000 mile minimum in Europe
- 8 segment awards
- good award availibility

If I had to earn under the M&M scheme, there would be no more loyalty towards LX from my side. I do not collect miles in M&M because of the extremely low mileage earning on discount fares.

If the 1000 minimum go away, or low fares don't earn full mileage anymore, I would no longer have a reason to fly Swiss, especially since more and more flights are out of Geneva where I have to connect somewhere anyway.

Swiss would loose 3/4 of the travel I do with them. 25+ flights a year! And LH would not get any of them because they have the same rules.

Frequent_Flyer1 Aug 3, 05 9:37 am

Thanks you Michael. I almost forgot about that... ^ Okay, here are my worst thoughts:

1) As you said, I'm also afraid of a complete integration into M&M. Especially concering "Collecting miles" and "miles needed to get status". Because I won't be able to fly 100.000 miles once every two years to requalify as a Senator. Senator needs a completely different flying habit than 50.000 miles once a year with LX. If an integrations happens, I will definitely switch to another FF-program!!!

2) Another important-factor is that you get 100% miles on every fare! What about the ridiculous offerings of M&M? But to be honest, I think this will stop sooner or later regardless of a possible integration into M&M. As Mr. Franz said in a interview some weeks ago: "otherwise there would be arbitrage-possibilities". Another drop of an item :( :(

3) Very good award conditions: 8 segment awards with one open jaw and a stopover. M&M is quite stringy about free flights.

Svenfly Aug 3, 05 12:44 pm

The Problem of the Mileage Accounts of STAR
 
Hi there,

i am a Member of Swiss Travel Club and Miles & More Austrian.

The Problem`s are very different Fare Classes for Mileage Accural of Swiss Travel Club for Lufthansa German Airlines and Miles & More Austrian/ Lufthansa gives also other Mileage Accural of a Swiss Paid Fare of Swiss Classes to Miles & More Account. Looks yourself of Swiss Collect Miles of Miles & More and Lufthansa Collect Miles by Swiss Travel Club.

Also not the Frequent Flyer Programs of Swiss Travel Club or Miles & More Fault`s but the Mileage Fare Base of Star Alliance gives everybody the same Mileage Summary out of every Star Alliance Frequent Flyer Program Account is looks like Thai Royal Orchid Plus or others.

That is a Star Alliance Mileage Problem not a Frequent Flyer own Airline Program Problem.

But what is today a good Frequent Flyer Program all looks like to gives little miles out cheap fare like L, T Fare for 125 MILES other Alliances like Oneworld or Skyteam like do 25 % Miles of 100 % Miles of cheapest Fares on the Mileage Account.

What Airline Program are worth it do make the most of Mileage in a Program today?

Your Opinions are welcome.

Best Wishes,

Sven

rorschi Aug 3, 05 1:16 pm

Hello,

as I "commute" on a route where LX and LH fly, I always had the choice of flying with one of those two carriers. After the splitting from Qualiflyer, I got a status match from OS, but I have never used that FTL-card for flights between ZRH and MUC, and have lost the FTL-status after the first requalification period.

There were some reasons to avoid SR/LX in the past:
-no more coffee service between ZRH and MUC
-first flight on monday morning was for a longer period always fully booked, as LX did not provide enough capacity (but is again OK since Jan 2004, as they switched that flight back from S20 to AR1/A319). So I had to pay full fare or fly on sunday evening
-not enough legroom on the Embraers...
-fear of a second "grounding", bad press reports in Switzerland etc.

But why didn't I fly LH?
1. As I use my miles mainly for upgrades on long-hauls, a M&M-mile is much less worth than a STC-mile for me, as the upgrades have always been more expensive with LH.
2. LX did always credit 1000miles, LH credits only 750 or even 125 miles with the cheap fares.

If a LH-mile is about 1ct worth, I save little more than 1€ per segment...

There are some rumours that Hapag-Lloyd will fly ZRH-MUC twice a day from the winter timetable. Helvetic seems to be interested, too. It's clear: With M&M-conditions, I will not care anymore for the FFP, and choose the cheapest flight, independent if LX, LH, OAW, HLF...

Patrick

basilea Aug 3, 05 3:50 pm

This thread finally made me join flyertalk. Hi everybody!

Although having plenty of alternatives, I have been flying Swiss for the past few years on my standard route because of their frequent flyer programme. TC is rewarding and as a TCSM I have access to many lounges even when flying in Economy at discounted fares.

If the minimum mileage amount for discounted Economy fares was reduced, I would no longer have any reason to fly with them. Even if segments (such as in M&M) were relevant for status, I would only achieve FTL in M&M which seems to be far less attractive than having silver status in STC.

I have been missing a few things from swiss, such as an online booking tool for multiple trips/open jaw in order to reduce service fees, or pre-assigned seats in R- and W-class, but these were things I have dealt with so far. Should the conditions of TC change, I am definitely on IB or ESZ.

Dennis Aug 3, 05 6:07 pm


Originally Posted by Frequent_Flyer1
Thanks you Michael. I almost forgot about that... ^ Okay, here are my worst thoughts:

1) As you said, I'm also afraid of a complete integration into M&M. Especially concering "Collecting miles" and "miles needed to get status". Because I won't be able to fly 100.000 miles once every two years to requalify as a Senator. Senator needs a completely different flying habit than 50.000 miles once a year with LX. If an integrations happens, I will definitely switch to another FF-program!!!

you don´t need to fly 100000 miles for remaining senator because you´ll get 25% bonus (senators or FTs) as "status miles" (and not like TC 30%only "Bonus Miles") for every valid flight.
So, "only" 80000 needed.

Snoopy Aug 3, 05 7:25 pm

This thread reminds me very much of the story of King Canute who tried to stop the tide....

King Canute

The similarity is even more striking because Canute knew that he couldn't do it...and I suspect that you also know at the bottom of your hearts that this is a losing battle...

Still, I give you 10 out of 10 for effort! Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Frequent_Flyer1 Aug 4, 05 12:06 am


Originally Posted by Dennis
you don´t need to fly 100000 miles for remaining senator because you´ll get 25% bonus (senators or FTs) as "status miles" (and not like TC 30%only "Bonus Miles") for every valid flight.
So, "only" 80000 needed.

Good point Dennis, THX! ^ But still a difference to STC Gold.


Originally Posted by Snoopy
...and I suspect that you also know at the bottom of your hearts that this is a losing battle...

As true as it can get... :eek: :confused: :(

Yak40 Aug 4, 05 1:00 am

Of course I’d also like to get many miles on cheap tickets, generous promotions, low redemption levels and good award availability. As my grandfather used to say: One can always have wishes (or dreams, as Snoopy has explained).

One modest request that doesn’t cost anything: I’d like to keep my history. So when any *A employee looks up customer Yak40, that should be Member since 1992, Total miles accrued 1.9 million. And not Member since 2005, Total miles accrued 0.

airoli Aug 4, 05 1:45 am

My few Rappen...
 
In the past 10 years, Qualiflyer / STC has been successful in winning (all!) my travel over the cheapest provider per route (LCCs on short-hauls and normally KL or AZ on longhauls) thanks to these perks, in order of importance:
  • Full miles on all fares.*
  • 8 segment awards.
  • Low elite threshold.
  • Occasional operational upgrades based on STC status.
  • Lounge access regardless of airline flown - especially important when I do fly non-aligned carriers.
  • Good award availability on partners.
  • Occasional promos offering heaps of miles!

Writing this I realize that it really only is the FFP that has kept me flying LX, for product, service and network offered are no longer any better than the one of their competitors. Should STC become similar to or be merged with M&M (with whom I still am FTL but won't renew it), I would no longer have any incentive to fly LX/LH or its partners unless they manage to differentiate themselves in their fares, schedules or superior product offerings.

* Call me cynical, but I would like to clarify this: Full miles on all fares means an accrual / redemption ratio that looks like it is now, i.e. 20 shorthaul segments in the cheapest Eco fare class equals one unrestricted European Y award ticket. I would hate to see an announcement "1000 miles per segment continues with M&M" while at the same time award levels skyrocket... :rolleyes:

P.S. Is it a losing battle? Probably. Is it still worth fighting? Definitely!

micro Aug 4, 05 9:02 am

I have also been loyal to LX for many years.

As the critical points have been covered I'd like to emphasise that if LX would change collecton of miles to something similar like M&M I'd take my business to some other FFP.

I am curious how non flight collection of miles will be handled via pointups, membership rewards etc - that might have some influence on staying with STC, but not necessarly on continuing flying with them.

As communicated before LX might have superior product offerings in the future so why not have a superior FFP as well? There is allways hope.

IAN-UK Aug 4, 05 11:14 am

.. just thought I'd be a bore and point out that FFP are constructs to benefit airlines. Benefits to passengers are selective.

Airlines slowly realised that only a very very small proportion of their frequent flyers generate significant levels of revenue, and so their FFP are designed to encourage the loyalty of these few.

Really, it's not rational to chase low-yielders with miles. You catch us by manipulating fares :D.

Marvin Aug 5, 05 3:56 am

The long-term view?
 
I echo all the above sentiments. Especially the minumum miles and the "member file history" ie. "member since 199x, x.y million miles earned"...

Successful loyalty "management" is a long term thing. I would say I was successfully "cornered" by SR/Qualiflyer well over 10 years ago in my "cheap" student flying days and have stayed ever since - now they get my better-revenue C class business too, as well as the "leisure" fares holidays / outings. If I was starting out these days, I don't think I'd have ever been "hooked" by the conditions say fro LH flights in Europe credited to STC.

Whilst I can cope with somewhat reduced miles for the real cheapies - say 50% for the bottom two booking classes, no miles at all (LH in L/T class on STC) and no minimums in Europe on LH for STC (actual mileage only) leaves me thinking: "why on earth should I bother". The new LH on STC earning within Europe has actively hindered me from booking LH short haul. -"Welcome back on board yet again sir, care for a slap in the face for your naughty cheap flight today?"

EasyJet, Air Berlin and all the rest are not bad options - similar/lower fare / similar service. What's Air Berlins ff system look like?

LH appear to have modeled their new system to some extent on the "high-revenue-preferred" BA executive club, roughly the same time as the EC started to give miles for cheaper fares - up from zero in many cases in economy.
Since the European operations of most of the network carriers seem to be racking up a deficit, surely every passenger they can claw back from the low cost outfits (and let's face it, a sprinkling of virtual currency (miles) is a pretty cheap way of doing so, esp. when they are in control of award inventory) would help.
Rgds
Marvin (living in hope!)

IAN-UK Aug 5, 05 5:18 am

Neat analysis Marvin - but note that LH and BA are succsesful airlines. Seems like they just might have got their FFPs right....

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the TCG programme. Long may it last!

And, hey, it only took SWISS a couple of years to realize it was a mistake not to hand out refreshments on Euroflights, so the current FFP programme could have years to run :rolleyes:


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