Covid19: Swiss refunds after cancellation
Mar 23, 2020, 7:54 am
#106
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Stockholm
Programs: EBD & Lifetime Gold
Posts: 204
- As I haven't received a refund receipt from Swiss, there is no one piece of evidence as to the amount that should be claimed back, nor of my right to a credit at all.
- In my case I had paid for the ticket in SEK and the cancellation charge as per the fare rules is in EUR. This means the bank must establish what exchange rate should be used for the refunded amount.
Mar 23, 2020, 8:39 am
#107
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Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
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Carsten Spohr is walking on a very thin line here.
There is a German term called "Überschuldung" (a company is too much indebted). If the LH Group is liable for EUR 6bn in ticket refunds, then this may become very serious for the management.
If that situation arised, the CEO would have to declare insolvency - at least in Germany.
There is a German term called "Überschuldung" (a company is too much indebted). If the LH Group is liable for EUR 6bn in ticket refunds, then this may become very serious for the management.
If that situation arised, the CEO would have to declare insolvency - at least in Germany.
Mar 23, 2020, 9:26 am
#108
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Western Europe
Posts: 205
I'm in the same situation with a First ticket to SFO at 4000 EUR. Cancelled on my initiative three weeks back, got a confirmation email then saying
"Your booking has been cancelled as requested.
Tickets nos.:
724xxxxxxxxxx
have been passed on for a possible* refund."
Thereafter, nothing. Please note that this was cancelled by me, using the cancellation rules of the ticket, nothing complementary here by Swiss. Still, I've called twice and all I'm hearing is that refunds will be processed in September.
Now working with my bank (through MasterCard) to claim this as a card credit I haven't received. The bank's reaction was that Swiss cannot hold rightful refunds back for months at their discretion, it likely breaches multiple T&Cs in the supply chain.
"Your booking has been cancelled as requested.
Tickets nos.:
724xxxxxxxxxx
have been passed on for a possible* refund."
Thereafter, nothing. Please note that this was cancelled by me, using the cancellation rules of the ticket, nothing complementary here by Swiss. Still, I've called twice and all I'm hearing is that refunds will be processed in September.
Now working with my bank (through MasterCard) to claim this as a card credit I haven't received. The bank's reaction was that Swiss cannot hold rightful refunds back for months at their discretion, it likely breaches multiple T&Cs in the supply chain.
Mar 23, 2020, 2:02 pm
#109
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MEX
Programs: AC E75K
Posts: 4,171
I just re-read EC261/2004 Article 8 and am now even more surprised to learn that LH / LX are playing this game. Here is the relevant language (emphasis mine):
How does this indefinite 'delay' fit into that seven-day rule?
Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,
- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,
- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.
Mar 23, 2020, 2:33 pm
#110
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: GVA
Programs: A3 *G, LX *G, AF *S
Posts: 761
Pretty clear it goes against this.
The key questions will be:
- how many people will sue them ? (probably nobody)
- will the national regulator force them to pay ? (also questionable)
So in the end, if companies and regulators bond together (and I bet they have talked before suddenly all companies came on the voucher idea), there is little you can do but sue...
The key questions will be:
- how many people will sue them ? (probably nobody)
- will the national regulator force them to pay ? (also questionable)
So in the end, if companies and regulators bond together (and I bet they have talked before suddenly all companies came on the voucher idea), there is little you can do but sue...
Mar 23, 2020, 2:52 pm
#111
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Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
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Pretty clear it goes against this.
The key questions will be:
- how many people will sue them ? (probably nobody)
- will the national regulator force them to pay ? (also questionable)
The key questions will be:
- how many people will sue them ? (probably nobody)
- will the national regulator force them to pay ? (also questionable)
- how many people will sue them ? (probably nobody)
But in Germany it's pretty easy and affordable to sue. Moreover, the claim agencies will jump onto that, but now focusing on article 8, not anymore on article 7 compensation.
If the flight departed or arrived in Germany, the court of the German airport has the jurisdiction (unless an airline has another company seat in Germany), since you are trying to enforce EC261/2004.
What can go wrong? Lufthansa cancels a flight, Lufthansa denies a full refund. Unless LH is going bankcrupt, the success in court is almost guaranteed.
There is a saying in German: "Geld hat man zu haben." So essentially, LH cannot defend themselves by telling the court they are low on cash.
Last edited by warakorn; Mar 23, 2020 at 3:04 pm
Mar 23, 2020, 2:59 pm
#112
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What should not be forgotten -> The fares usually include government or airport-imposed taxes/fees. Swiss do not have to pay those taxes/fees, if they don't actually fly.
So, essentially, Swiss is keeping money, which belongs (to a large degree) to the taxman (and therefore the taxpayers).
So, essentially, Swiss is keeping money, which belongs (to a large degree) to the taxman (and therefore the taxpayers).
Mar 23, 2020, 3:28 pm
#113
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: GVA
Programs: A3 *G, LX *G, AF *S
Posts: 761
What can go wrong? Lufthansa cancels a flight, Lufthansa denies a full refund. Unless LH is going bankcrupt, the success in court is almost guaranteed.
There is a saying in German: "Geld hat man zu haben." So essentially, LH cannot defend themselves by telling the court they are low on cash.
That's what they are counting on. Only a class action would seem to be successful, I guess.
Mar 23, 2020, 3:33 pm
#114
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Yes - but how long will a court procedure take ? And who wants to spend money on lawyers with uncertain outcome ?
That's what they are counting on. Only a class action would seem to be successful, I guess.
Mar 23, 2020, 7:00 pm
#115
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,581
Well, I’ve got a few tickets I was going to let LH hang onto if they’d had a fair rebooking procedure; no upsell; no RBD fiddle; reasonable rebooking dates.
As they haven’t played fair I’m going to get the refunds. Helga won’t stop me from having my money back.
But I will accept, as a special offer, a 200% voucher value on the cash owed. Limited time.
As they haven’t played fair I’m going to get the refunds. Helga won’t stop me from having my money back.
But I will accept, as a special offer, a 200% voucher value on the cash owed. Limited time.
Mar 24, 2020, 1:41 am
#117
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Western Europe
Posts: 205
Mar 24, 2020, 5:04 am
#118
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The issue seems to be that the Lufthansa Group airlines are appearing to violate almost the entire article 8 rulebook.
LH/LX are probably hoping that 98% of all pax are too tired of sueing them or are not initiating credit card chargebacks.
Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,
- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,
- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.
- 8.(a) -> Not offering a cash refund (the actual theme of this thread);
- 8.(b) -> There seem to be a number of horror stories on the web, where people got stranded all over the world. It's not all the fault of LH/LX, however, they must do everything to bring people home. Pax should not buy expensive replacement tickets on Emirates by themselves;
- 8.(c) -> The idea of LH/LX is to issue a voucher and then charge the fare difference between the fare/value of the voucher and the new fare (in 6-18 months time). LH/LX have complete control on future fares. Basically (and the super-cheaky method), Lufthansa wants to keep the money, not deliver a service (its not LH's fault, but they save costs by not operating flights); and in the future pax need to buy a new ticket with new cash (by LH charging an arbitrary fare difference).
LH/LX are probably hoping that 98% of all pax are too tired of sueing them or are not initiating credit card chargebacks.
Mar 24, 2020, 5:09 am
#119
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Air France is following the lead of LX.
COVID-19: AF/KL rebooking/refund policy
COVID-19: AF/KL rebooking/refund policy
Mar 24, 2020, 5:15 am
#120
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 272
Not sure if it has been mentioned before: Apparently Swiss is not refunding to travel agencies either
https://www.travelnews.ch/flug/15699...n-hahn-ab.html (sorry, german only).
https://www.travelnews.ch/flug/15699...n-hahn-ab.html (sorry, german only).