Covid19: Swiss refunds after cancellation
Jul 9, 2020, 11:28 am
#601
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: LHR
Programs: Accor PLT,Thai Silver, HH Dia, SPG Titanium (LT Gold), Aegean Gold, BA Silver
Posts: 5,116
Couple of good documents posted by Oliver which may be of use on this thread Invol Cancellation rebooking inflexibility
Jul 16, 2020, 4:44 am
#604
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 902
Swiss refused to process a refund for a cancelled flight. My chargeback was succesful, despite their strenuos opposition at every step of the way, and money has been returned to my account.
I understand airlines have had a tough time lately, and I am not claiming EU261 compensation for flights cancelled after the 2 weeks deadline. However, due to Swiss’s unfriendly and bellicose attitude I will now be suing them in small claims court for the 600Eur compensation they owe me.
I understand airlines have had a tough time lately, and I am not claiming EU261 compensation for flights cancelled after the 2 weeks deadline. However, due to Swiss’s unfriendly and bellicose attitude I will now be suing them in small claims court for the 600Eur compensation they owe me.
Jul 16, 2020, 5:17 am
#605
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,653
Swiss refused a charge-back for some June flights on a UK issued Amex card. It's now gone back to Amex's second stage sending through some further documentation to support the claim. In parallel I've send a letter before action to Swiss's UK and Swiss offices demanding the refund be issued within seven calendar days. If nothing is back on the card on Monday it'll be on to Money Claim Online.
Jul 16, 2020, 7:49 am
#606
Moderator: SAS
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: BLL & CPH & ZRH
Programs: LX, SK EBD (*G)
Posts: 3,146
Swiss refused to process a refund for a cancelled flight. My chargeback was succesful, despite their strenuos opposition at every step of the way, and money has been returned to my account.
I understand airlines have had a tough time lately, and I am not claiming EU261 compensation for flights cancelled after the 2 weeks deadline. However, due to Swiss’s unfriendly and bellicose attitude I will now be suing them in small claims court for the 600Eur compensation they owe me.
I understand airlines have had a tough time lately, and I am not claiming EU261 compensation for flights cancelled after the 2 weeks deadline. However, due to Swiss’s unfriendly and bellicose attitude I will now be suing them in small claims court for the 600Eur compensation they owe me.
Jul 16, 2020, 8:47 am
#607
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Munich, Algarve, Sussex or S.F Bay Area
Programs: Mucci, BA Gold, A3*Gold, AA Plat, HH Gold, IHG Plat Amb, Marriott Plat
Posts: 4,158
For example, a flight failing to depart on time during the pandemic due to a technical defect cannot be considered to be due to COVID. I expect the Airline would maintain that the engineer supposed to fix the problem took longer due to COVID but I suspect most courts would be unsympathetic to this.
EDIT: In my opinion, the LH Group practice of only cancelling flights at (very) short notice in order to make nervous passengers voluntarily rebook instead of getting refunds may well also fall foul in court when challenged. Especially when one makes the case with evidence that this was systematic.
Jul 16, 2020, 9:24 am
#608
Moderator: SAS
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: BLL & CPH & ZRH
Programs: LX, SK EBD (*G)
Posts: 3,146
This is not strictly true. Guidance has been issued that COVID can be deemed extraordinary circumstances, but that does not mean all cancellations can be attributed to COVID. For cancellations in March and April, almost certainly, but flights deliberately scheduled during the pandemic that were then subsequently cancelled at short notice might not be treated this way by courts. As always, it depends on the individual circumstances.
For example, a flight failing to depart on time during the pandemic due to a technical defect cannot be considered to be due to COVID. I expect the Airline would maintain that the engineer supposed to fix the problem took longer due to COVID but I suspect most courts would be unsympathetic to this.
EDIT: In my opinion, the LH Group practice of only cancelling flights at (very) short notice in order to make nervous passengers voluntarily rebook instead of getting refunds may well also fall foul in court when challenged. Especially when one makes the case with evidence that this was systematic.
For example, a flight failing to depart on time during the pandemic due to a technical defect cannot be considered to be due to COVID. I expect the Airline would maintain that the engineer supposed to fix the problem took longer due to COVID but I suspect most courts would be unsympathetic to this.
EDIT: In my opinion, the LH Group practice of only cancelling flights at (very) short notice in order to make nervous passengers voluntarily rebook instead of getting refunds may well also fall foul in court when challenged. Especially when one makes the case with evidence that this was systematic.
Jul 16, 2020, 1:50 pm
#609
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
Programs: UA Premier Gold
Posts: 4,783
The EU has already cleared that flights cancelled because of Covid-19 are considered exceptional circumstances and therefore no EU compensation (for cancellation within two weeks for example) is due.
The EU Commission has expressed an opinion, which btw. does not say all compensation claims during the pandemic are invalid. Even if --- the EU Commission has not the mandate to change the European Passenger Right Legislation, this can only be done by the European Parliament.
Jul 17, 2020, 2:10 pm
#610
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,740
Bizzare events over a timeline - just an FYI for those still battle on getting their canceled flights refunded.
LX intra-EU flights booked with Chase Ultimate Reward points, travel dates were in May. First flight departed from LED finally was canceled by LX in Mid April when Russia had shut down border almost a month before. The PNR could not pull up the itinerary but using ticket numbers, it would still show, and the flights all showed Canceled status.
There was no direct dealing with LX at booking, and the payment card is Chase Travel Corporate card.
On 04/17/20 Submitted Refund Requests on LX website using the URL link found on this thread to find the Refund Request screen. Made screen shots but never received any robot email from LX on those requests.
04/18/20 Chatted with Chase Ultimate Reward rep who agreed the canceled itinerary was eligible for refund. She attempted to request refund thru the "system" but the function did not work. (We knew LH has disabled all auto-refund functions by travel agencies).
She then called LX and was told the TA needed to submit an email request and then waited for LX response. Got a case number.
After waiting for 2 weeks, called Chase UR where a rep said she saw the note of email sent, but there was no response from LX, so Chase UR could not do anything.
05/11/20 Chatted with Chase UR again. This rep claimed the prev request was submitted to the wrong dept (not sure whether she meant the dept with Expedia which handled Chase UR flight booking, or to LX). She did not mention about email LX but said she would resubmitted the refund request. Got another case number.
05/21/20 Chase UR sent an email informing that the refund was process. Chase UR had returned the points used to make the purchase to the account, that we could check it after 15 to 30 min upon receiving this email. Things finally came to a closure or so we thought. There is also a case number which was different from the previous 2 case numbers!
05/29/20 Chase UR sentyet another email, said LX had informed them we were due airline credits, one for each passenger. Chase said at this moment it was waiting for LX further notification on the restrictions on such credits, then would inform us accordingly...
Note that we already received all the points used to pay for the tickets a week before this new email came.
This prompts me to monitor Chase UR balance but thankfully there was no claw back on the previously returned points.
07/15/20 LX sent 2 emails to us, one for each passenger, saying this -
Naturally, all guests who have submitted a valid refund request will be reimbursed.
We have totally refunded USD xxx.xx The amount will be credited to the original method of payment shortly.
This is 7 weeks after Chase Ultimate Rewards has refunded the points used to pay.
Based on DPs on FT Chase forum, Chase has NOT refunded anyone unless it receives the refund from the travel operators, be it an airline, a hotel, or a cruise line. (Our cruise booked with UR pts took 2 weeks after cruise line issued the $ back to Chase payment card, and that was 89 days from the cruise was canceled by the cruise line.)
Therefore I believe LX has long refunded to Chase payment card, back in May. But the accounting records obviously are a mess, so now when they finally clear the backlogs on the refund requests so to fulfill the bailout requirement before the Sept deadline, they just go thru the motion to clear all eligible refund requests.
So for those of you who have submitted the refund requests on LX website, your refunds may eventually be issued!
LX intra-EU flights booked with Chase Ultimate Reward points, travel dates were in May. First flight departed from LED finally was canceled by LX in Mid April when Russia had shut down border almost a month before. The PNR could not pull up the itinerary but using ticket numbers, it would still show, and the flights all showed Canceled status.
There was no direct dealing with LX at booking, and the payment card is Chase Travel Corporate card.
On 04/17/20 Submitted Refund Requests on LX website using the URL link found on this thread to find the Refund Request screen. Made screen shots but never received any robot email from LX on those requests.
04/18/20 Chatted with Chase Ultimate Reward rep who agreed the canceled itinerary was eligible for refund. She attempted to request refund thru the "system" but the function did not work. (We knew LH has disabled all auto-refund functions by travel agencies).
She then called LX and was told the TA needed to submit an email request and then waited for LX response. Got a case number.
After waiting for 2 weeks, called Chase UR where a rep said she saw the note of email sent, but there was no response from LX, so Chase UR could not do anything.
05/11/20 Chatted with Chase UR again. This rep claimed the prev request was submitted to the wrong dept (not sure whether she meant the dept with Expedia which handled Chase UR flight booking, or to LX). She did not mention about email LX but said she would resubmitted the refund request. Got another case number.
05/21/20 Chase UR sent an email informing that the refund was process. Chase UR had returned the points used to make the purchase to the account, that we could check it after 15 to 30 min upon receiving this email. Things finally came to a closure or so we thought. There is also a case number which was different from the previous 2 case numbers!
05/29/20 Chase UR sentyet another email, said LX had informed them we were due airline credits, one for each passenger. Chase said at this moment it was waiting for LX further notification on the restrictions on such credits, then would inform us accordingly...
Note that we already received all the points used to pay for the tickets a week before this new email came.
This prompts me to monitor Chase UR balance but thankfully there was no claw back on the previously returned points.
07/15/20 LX sent 2 emails to us, one for each passenger, saying this -
Naturally, all guests who have submitted a valid refund request will be reimbursed.
We have totally refunded USD xxx.xx The amount will be credited to the original method of payment shortly.
This is 7 weeks after Chase Ultimate Rewards has refunded the points used to pay.
Based on DPs on FT Chase forum, Chase has NOT refunded anyone unless it receives the refund from the travel operators, be it an airline, a hotel, or a cruise line. (Our cruise booked with UR pts took 2 weeks after cruise line issued the $ back to Chase payment card, and that was 89 days from the cruise was canceled by the cruise line.)
Therefore I believe LX has long refunded to Chase payment card, back in May. But the accounting records obviously are a mess, so now when they finally clear the backlogs on the refund requests so to fulfill the bailout requirement before the Sept deadline, they just go thru the motion to clear all eligible refund requests.
So for those of you who have submitted the refund requests on LX website, your refunds may eventually be issued!
Last edited by Happy; Jul 17, 2020 at 2:16 pm
Jul 18, 2020, 5:25 am
#611
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 42,888
The relevant document is from 18 March, the EU Commission released “Interpretative Guidelines on EU passenger rights regulations in the context of the developing situation with Covid-19".
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres...l/en/IP_20_485
3.4. Right to compensation
Regulation 261/2004 also provides for fixed sum compensations in some circumstances. This does not apply to cancellations made more than 14 days in advance or where the cancellation is caused by 'extraordinary circumstances' that could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. For details, see Article 5(1) and Article 7 of the Regulation.
The Commission considers that, where public authorities take measures intended to contain the Covid-19 pandemic, such measures are by their nature and origin not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of carriers and are outside their actual control.
Article 5(3) waives the right to compensation on condition that the cancellation in question “is caused” by extraordinary circumstances, which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.
This condition should be considered fulfilled, where public authorities either outright prohibit certain flights or ban the movement of persons in a manner that excludes, de facto, the flight in question to be operated.
This condition may also be fulfilled, where the flight cancellation occurs in circumstances where the corresponding movement of persons is not entirely prohibited, but limited to persons benefitting from derogations (for example nationals or residents of the state concerned).
Where no such person would take a given flight, the latter would remain empty if not cancelled. In such situations, it may be legitimate for a carrier not to wait until very late, but to cancel the flight in good time (and even without being certain about the rights of the various passengers to travel at all), in order for appropriate organisational measures to be taken, including in terms of care for passengers owed by the carrier. In cases of the kind, and depending on the circumstances, a cancellation may still be viewed as “caused” by the measure taken by the public authorities. Again, depending on the circumstances, this may also be the case in respect of flights in the direction opposite to the flights directly concerned by the ban on the movement of persons.
Where the airline decides to cancel a flight and shows that this decision was justified on grounds of protecting the health of the crew, such cancellation should also be considered as “caused” by extraordinary circumstances.
Regulation 261/2004 also provides for fixed sum compensations in some circumstances. This does not apply to cancellations made more than 14 days in advance or where the cancellation is caused by 'extraordinary circumstances' that could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. For details, see Article 5(1) and Article 7 of the Regulation.
The Commission considers that, where public authorities take measures intended to contain the Covid-19 pandemic, such measures are by their nature and origin not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of carriers and are outside their actual control.
Article 5(3) waives the right to compensation on condition that the cancellation in question “is caused” by extraordinary circumstances, which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.
This condition should be considered fulfilled, where public authorities either outright prohibit certain flights or ban the movement of persons in a manner that excludes, de facto, the flight in question to be operated.
This condition may also be fulfilled, where the flight cancellation occurs in circumstances where the corresponding movement of persons is not entirely prohibited, but limited to persons benefitting from derogations (for example nationals or residents of the state concerned).
Where no such person would take a given flight, the latter would remain empty if not cancelled. In such situations, it may be legitimate for a carrier not to wait until very late, but to cancel the flight in good time (and even without being certain about the rights of the various passengers to travel at all), in order for appropriate organisational measures to be taken, including in terms of care for passengers owed by the carrier. In cases of the kind, and depending on the circumstances, a cancellation may still be viewed as “caused” by the measure taken by the public authorities. Again, depending on the circumstances, this may also be the case in respect of flights in the direction opposite to the flights directly concerned by the ban on the movement of persons.
Where the airline decides to cancel a flight and shows that this decision was justified on grounds of protecting the health of the crew, such cancellation should also be considered as “caused” by extraordinary circumstances.
Jul 21, 2020, 6:06 am
#612
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,653
So I've got what I think is an interesting email back from Swiss Customer Relations.
In short, had flights with them which were cancelled. Started off the charge-back route, which got denied due to the standard immigration bulls*t they've been spouting to everyone.
I wrote them a "Letter before Action" enclosing their CoC and 261/2004, giving them seven days to pay or I'll take out action in the English Small Claims Court. That did the trick with an apologetic email from customer relations and the money now back on the Amex. I pressed them on why they declined the chargeback when they did acknowledge in writing that I was fully entitled to the refund.
They came back with the following:
I find this fascinating - they're simply disputing all chargebacks regardless. If I were Amex (or indeed MC/Visa), surely I'd be interested in a merchant blatantly abusing the process to their own ends?
In short, had flights with them which were cancelled. Started off the charge-back route, which got denied due to the standard immigration bulls*t they've been spouting to everyone.
I wrote them a "Letter before Action" enclosing their CoC and 261/2004, giving them seven days to pay or I'll take out action in the English Small Claims Court. That did the trick with an apologetic email from customer relations and the money now back on the Amex. I pressed them on why they declined the chargeback when they did acknowledge in writing that I was fully entitled to the refund.
They came back with the following:
Originally Posted by Swiss
I regret that we failed to meet the standards we committed ourselves to with regards to refund processing times and I understand your frustration in light of the unsuccessful refund request and chargeback attempt. We deem it important to carefully check each refund request. For this reason, all chargebacks have been disputed as the relevant department confronted with these is neither trained to do the necessary checks nor has the capacity to do so. While we received chargeback requests by passengers with a clear entitlement to a refund, there are also other cases to be considered, such as cancellations by passengers who felt it was unsafe to fly or who were unable to fly due to immigration restrictions and also requested refunds. In order to follow a transparent and fair refund process, chargebacks have thus not been agreed to with regard to Coronavirus irregularities, but referred back to our Refunds Department.
Jul 21, 2020, 2:47 pm
#613
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MEX
Programs: AC E75K
Posts: 4,171
So I've got what I think is an interesting email back from Swiss Customer Relations.
In short, had flights with them which were cancelled. Started off the charge-back route, which got denied due to the standard immigration bulls*t they've been spouting to everyone.
I wrote them a "Letter before Action" enclosing their CoC and 261/2004, giving them seven days to pay or I'll take out action in the English Small Claims Court. That did the trick with an apologetic email from customer relations and the money now back on the Amex. I pressed them on why they declined the chargeback when they did acknowledge in writing that I was fully entitled to the refund.
They came back with the following:
I find this fascinating - they're simply disputing all chargebacks regardless. If I were Amex (or indeed MC/Visa), surely I'd be interested in a merchant blatantly abusing the process to their own ends?
In short, had flights with them which were cancelled. Started off the charge-back route, which got denied due to the standard immigration bulls*t they've been spouting to everyone.
I wrote them a "Letter before Action" enclosing their CoC and 261/2004, giving them seven days to pay or I'll take out action in the English Small Claims Court. That did the trick with an apologetic email from customer relations and the money now back on the Amex. I pressed them on why they declined the chargeback when they did acknowledge in writing that I was fully entitled to the refund.
They came back with the following:
I find this fascinating - they're simply disputing all chargebacks regardless. If I were Amex (or indeed MC/Visa), surely I'd be interested in a merchant blatantly abusing the process to their own ends?
It's sad and disappointing that this is what it takes for Swiss to act in a good faith manner at this point.
Personally still waiting for the refund of my cancelled CDG-ZRH-GRU-EZE flight from April.
Jul 23, 2020, 12:04 pm
#614
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 43
I had an upcoming flight scheduled mid-August. It was booked using points with the Chase Ultimate Rewards travel portal. I received an unprompted email the other day from Chase that the flight was cancelled and that my points have been refunded (they were). Given what I had been reading above it seems like I'm pretty fortunate...
However, I had also purchased around USD 500 worth of seat assignments directly from Swiss via credit card. I submitted an online refund request for this. Any feedback on the best way to get this refund processed?
However, I had also purchased around USD 500 worth of seat assignments directly from Swiss via credit card. I submitted an online refund request for this. Any feedback on the best way to get this refund processed?
Jul 23, 2020, 1:08 pm
#615
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
Programs: UA Premier Gold
Posts: 4,783
I find this fascinating - they're simply disputing all chargebacks regardless. If I were Amex (or indeed MC/Visa), surely I'd be interested in a merchant blatantly abusing the process to their own ends?