Should Swiss show some understanding? (Paid F)
Sep 7, 2019, 5:34 pm
#32
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2013
Programs: Hyatt
Posts: 75
= Not worth it.
I have accepted that I will have to travel.
And people worrying about me paying 2 months salary for a ticket. This is my life. I like flying and to try different cabins.
I don't have much that I do in life but flying is one of the few things I really enjoy and what I spend my money on. I have learnt that life is to short to just put the money in the bank. I always travel business or first class and I stopped flying economy few years ago unless I find something really extraordinary in terms of price.
I am not rich but I live now. I might even die soon. You never know what will happen to you. I have seen death so close to me many times.
I live in Europe and I have been very close (minutes away) to two terrorist attacks that each had way more than 50 people killed and a third where I left the city 12 hours before an attack occurred.
Life can be taken away from you any second. As long as I have roof over my head and food on the table I don't mind spending the rest on what I love to do, which is flying and travelling. As long as I can.
I don’t think we should be judging people as to how they decide to spend their money.
Everyone has different priorities in their life.
Perhaps the OP is an Avgeek and likes to try different products on various airlines? These people normally play the points game or fly on mistake fares. Because of their patterns, they don’t stay loyal enough to one airline group to earn high enough status. Given that LX F is only available on points to HON/SEN members, the only alternative is for a “cheap” cash ticket.
Maybe the OP has been obsessed about trying LX F for so long that he diligently put away a bit of money each month for many months so that he can buy the ticket and finally cross that item off his bucket list? It seems to me that a lot of people in the younger generation operate on a bucket list. You can see this phenomenon on Youtube (various flight vloggers/bloggers) and other social media.
Last edited by Andaz; Sep 7, 2019 at 5:42 pm
Sep 8, 2019, 2:00 am
#33
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London, Paris
Programs: LH HON, AF Platinum
Posts: 2,001
I sympathize, but just some friendly advice: save, save, save. When I started my career I was reluctant to do business class even though a typical P fare from NYC to EU was about a third of my monthly take home salary. But once I reached my first $100k saved I was able to do some interesting things that eventually multiplied my net worth to over 8 figures. My strategies aren't replicable (and my success is almost entirely luck in investments), but I'll say that you will always make more money putting your money to work as opposed to throwing it away on premium fares. And I can even say that aggressively saving for the first few years sets you up decently to be able to enjoy those things later on, while also being able to put your money to work.
If you're in your twenties, I'm willing to bet you (literally) that the odds of you losing your life now are extremely low compared to when you're 50. "Sacrificing" even 10 years to have a comfortable savings level so you can enjoy these things in your thirties isn't really a trade off. And I say "sacrificing" in quotation marks because plenty of people, including those with 8 to 9 figure net worths, slum it in coach. It's fine and it works.
I'll end this post by saying that compound interest is so immensely powerful. Living paycheck to paycheck in your 20s means you're depriving yourself of 10 years of compounded gains. Assuming an average annual rate of return of 7%, that's a huge, huge sacrifice.
If you're in your twenties, I'm willing to bet you (literally) that the odds of you losing your life now are extremely low compared to when you're 50. "Sacrificing" even 10 years to have a comfortable savings level so you can enjoy these things in your thirties isn't really a trade off. And I say "sacrificing" in quotation marks because plenty of people, including those with 8 to 9 figure net worths, slum it in coach. It's fine and it works.
I'll end this post by saying that compound interest is so immensely powerful. Living paycheck to paycheck in your 20s means you're depriving yourself of 10 years of compounded gains. Assuming an average annual rate of return of 7%, that's a huge, huge sacrifice.
Sep 8, 2019, 2:08 am
#34
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London, Paris
Programs: LH HON, AF Platinum
Posts: 2,001
Starting with $0 at 20 and saving $1k a month, assuming a 7% annual rate of return leaves you with $172k by the time you're 30. And if you add nothing to that pot and let it compound until you're 60, leaves you with $1.3m again assuming a 7% IRR.
Sacrificing $1.3m so you can fly first class in your 20s. That's basically financial Darwinism.
Sacrificing $1.3m so you can fly first class in your 20s. That's basically financial Darwinism.
Sep 8, 2019, 3:34 am
#35
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,160
depending on the fare rules, once the outbound has been flown it might be repriced based on historic fares? Something for the OP to look into in case the situation deteriorates and it’s necessary to return home early?
Sep 8, 2019, 3:47 am
#36
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK
Posts: 17,008
The ticket price is sunk. The remaining variable to weigh up against maximising time with your friend is a holiday in Thailand.
you clearly want to take the holiday. Shifting responsibility for an awkward decision onto an airline may assuage guilt: but it's not an attractive picture.
you clearly want to take the holiday. Shifting responsibility for an awkward decision onto an airline may assuage guilt: but it's not an attractive picture.
Sep 8, 2019, 4:06 am
#37
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SIN (with a bit of ZRH sprinkled in)
Posts: 9,453
Flying Ex-ZRH directly is always expensive, 3500€ for an F ticket to BKK is a good offer (not extremely great, but good)
But then, 3500€ isn't a two month salary in ZRH, more like two weeks of an average salary. If you don't have a family to support with a single income, spending that kind of amount for some luxury travel isn't something unheard of.
You must be fun at party.
By the way, interests in CHF (and Euro not much different) are very close to 0%. If not negative. Saving 1k for 10 years will yield you 120k when you retire, at the least at the moment. I'd prefer to have a nice time between 20 and 30 to have such (relatively) extra money when I'm old. Inflation probably ate away half of it by then, anyway.
7% must have been sometime in the 1960s.
Plus if you never enjoy your life when young, you might just become grumpy when you're old and not even feel like you'd want to spend money for enjoyment. I know some people who ended up quite like that.
Putting some money on the side (in Switzerland it's tax beneficial to do so at about 650 CHF per month) for later is the right strategy IF one can still enjoy life besides that.
Having a tight life (for 40 or just 10 years "because of retirement fears") doesn't sound very interesting to me.
But then, 3500€ isn't a two month salary in ZRH, more like two weeks of an average salary. If you don't have a family to support with a single income, spending that kind of amount for some luxury travel isn't something unheard of.
Starting with $0 at 20 and saving $1k a month, assuming a 7% annual rate of return leaves you with $172k by the time you're 30. And if you add nothing to that pot and let it compound until you're 60, leaves you with $1.3m again assuming a 7% IRR.
Sacrificing $1.3m so you can fly first class in your 20s. That's basically financial Darwinism.
Sacrificing $1.3m so you can fly first class in your 20s. That's basically financial Darwinism.
By the way, interests in CHF (and Euro not much different) are very close to 0%. If not negative. Saving 1k for 10 years will yield you 120k when you retire, at the least at the moment. I'd prefer to have a nice time between 20 and 30 to have such (relatively) extra money when I'm old. Inflation probably ate away half of it by then, anyway.
7% must have been sometime in the 1960s.
Plus if you never enjoy your life when young, you might just become grumpy when you're old and not even feel like you'd want to spend money for enjoyment. I know some people who ended up quite like that.
Putting some money on the side (in Switzerland it's tax beneficial to do so at about 650 CHF per month) for later is the right strategy IF one can still enjoy life besides that.
Having a tight life (for 40 or just 10 years "because of retirement fears") doesn't sound very interesting to me.
Last edited by YuropFlyer; Sep 8, 2019 at 4:11 am
Sep 8, 2019, 4:11 am
#38
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London, Paris
Programs: LH HON, AF Platinum
Posts: 2,001
Flying Ex-ZRH directly is always expensive, 3500€ for an F ticket to BKK is a good offer (not extremely great, but good)
But then, 3500€ isn't a two month salary in ZRH, more like two weeks of an average salary. If you don't have a family to support with a single income, spending that kind of amount for some luxury travel isn't something unheard of.
But then, 3500€ isn't a two month salary in ZRH, more like two weeks of an average salary. If you don't have a family to support with a single income, spending that kind of amount for some luxury travel isn't something unheard of.
ahhh yes, truly a life of glamour and luxury lol
Sep 8, 2019, 4:27 am
#39
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SIN (with a bit of ZRH sprinkled in)
Posts: 9,453
If 7800 CHF is the median monthly salary in Zurich, what is it after taxes and housing for a single person? Probably closer to 4000? 3.8k CHF for a plane ticket means 200 CHF left for food, savings, all other necessities.
ahhh yes, truly a life of glamour and luxury lol
Somehow I doubt so.. rent certainly isn't free in London either (unless you're a Brexiter and believe in Unicorns, of course..)
Besides that, let's get some facts:
https://www.thelocal.ch/20181128/swi...it-record-high
Median income indeed is 7800 CHF. I'd assume someone on a board like this does earn at least median income, or probably on the upper side of it.
If you want to be living in the city of Zürich in a reasonable location, rent for a 2-room appartment will be anything from 1500 to 2000 CHF. Of course there are luxury options too, but that price range is what most people will pay for a 2 room flat. Assuming 1700 CHF.
From 7800 CHF, you'll pay about 10% for mandatory retirement, unemployment etc. (less when younger, which is the assumption here, more if older)
About 10% taxes as well. About 6200 CHF left after that. Minus the flat around 4500 CHF left.
You can definitely enjoy some long haul luxury travel 5x a year with that, AND getting reasonable good food all year round, entertainment and a new phone every second year with that, too. And even safe for a rainy day.
There are reasons why people migrate TO Zürich, and not that many why people are migrating away. Money is usually always #1 reason for people why to move somewhere (besides love, maybe..)
Sep 8, 2019, 4:32 am
#40
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London, Paris
Programs: LH HON, AF Platinum
Posts: 2,001
I'm really not sure what we are arguing about. My only point is that the OPs decisions make me maternally frightened for his lack of financial literacy.
The rest of the post about how awesome Switzerland is we can argue privately. Suffice to say, I would never move there even if my salary doubled as a result.
The rest of the post about how awesome Switzerland is we can argue privately. Suffice to say, I would never move there even if my salary doubled as a result.
Sep 8, 2019, 5:10 am
#41
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London, Paris
Programs: LH HON, AF Platinum
Posts: 2,001
You must be fun at party.
By the way, interests in CHF (and Euro not much different) are very close to 0%. If not negative. Saving 1k for 10 years will yield you 120k when you retire, at the least at the moment. I'd prefer to have a nice time between 20 and 30 to have such (relatively) extra money when I'm old. Inflation probably ate away half of it by then, anyway.
7% must have been sometime in the 1960s.
Plus if you never enjoy your life when young, you might just become grumpy when you're old and not even feel like you'd want to spend money for enjoyment. I know some people who ended up quite like that.
Putting some money on the side (in Switzerland it's tax beneficial to do so at about 650 CHF per month) for later is the right strategy IF one can still enjoy life besides that.
Having a tight life (for 40 or just 10 years "because of retirement fears") doesn't sound very interesting to me.
By the way, interests in CHF (and Euro not much different) are very close to 0%. If not negative. Saving 1k for 10 years will yield you 120k when you retire, at the least at the moment. I'd prefer to have a nice time between 20 and 30 to have such (relatively) extra money when I'm old. Inflation probably ate away half of it by then, anyway.
7% must have been sometime in the 1960s.
Plus if you never enjoy your life when young, you might just become grumpy when you're old and not even feel like you'd want to spend money for enjoyment. I know some people who ended up quite like that.
Putting some money on the side (in Switzerland it's tax beneficial to do so at about 650 CHF per month) for later is the right strategy IF one can still enjoy life besides that.
Having a tight life (for 40 or just 10 years "because of retirement fears") doesn't sound very interesting to me.
No, I'm not advocating for shoving all the cash into a bank account. Obviously, interest rates there have been nominal. I am advocating for passively investing it in boring index funds tracking the S&P 500, which have been returning in excess of 7% on average for the last 30 years. Your point about inflation is not particularly well taken--the past 10 years have displayed a remarkably low amount of inflation, and odds are looking likely that we're heading into deflation as far as the EU and US are concerned (which is why interest rates are veering lower to negative). I'll concede that it's not necessarily the case that the S&P will continue to return 7% on average annually for the next 30 years, but that's a separate debate for another thread and probably another forum.
Anyways, I am amused at the "you must be fun at parties" snipe. Life's been great for me. I became a millionaire in my late 20s as a result of smart saving and investing, but because I had a financial plan it was compatible with living a nice life. Life is fun for me because I'm continuously thinking of fun and smart ways to put my money to work, and if you read my other posts you'll notice that I manage to eek out quite a nice lifestyle despite all of that.
The notions of "saving when you're young" and "enjoying life" are hardly incompatible, unless you're illiterate lol
As an aside, I actually analyze financial attitudes quite a bit because I think a lot of our polarized politics are linked to income and financial inequality. One of the most jarring discoveries I made a few years ago is that money management is poor both for low earners and high earners. This led to many finance nerds coining the acronym "HENRY," which means High Earner Not Rich Yet. I've personally coined the term "HENRE," High Earner Not Rich Ever.
Sep 8, 2019, 7:39 am
#42
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: ZRH / YUL
Programs: UA, TK, Starwood > Marriott, Hilton, Accor
Posts: 7,295
Can we please stay on the OP's topic. I don't think he asked for a financial assessment of his spending and saving patterns. 
Sep 8, 2019, 8:09 am
#43
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2013
Programs: Hyatt
Posts: 75
*Sigh*
Please. Everyone, calm down. I am no economic guru. I have always lived for the day since I was born. I don't even care about money that much, still this ticket is to expensive to throw away.
Money do not make you happy.
When I was 20 years old I won over 80.000€ and I spent 90% of it on travels. Do I regret it? No, I don't. I had so much fun for this money. The memories will last forever.
Am I rich now? Most likely not but if you look at the whole world I am probably top 2-3%. What is rich by the way? A fancy home in New York? Fake friends? Expensive clothes? Fancy parties where no one actually really likes you?
Do I have an apartment? Yes, I do. A great one in fact.
Can I afford to eat what I want whenever I want? Yes I can.
Do I have a savings account? Yes.
Do my work put away money for my pension? Yes.
Please, do not worry about my economy situation.
I have friends that are into stocks and all that but it's not for me.
I do some part-time jobs on the side as well which brings in some extra €.
I respect everyones decision to live their life however they want.
I have already decided to travel on this journey. Case closed.
Please. Everyone, calm down. I am no economic guru. I have always lived for the day since I was born. I don't even care about money that much, still this ticket is to expensive to throw away.
Money do not make you happy.
When I was 20 years old I won over 80.000€ and I spent 90% of it on travels. Do I regret it? No, I don't. I had so much fun for this money. The memories will last forever.
Am I rich now? Most likely not but if you look at the whole world I am probably top 2-3%. What is rich by the way? A fancy home in New York? Fake friends? Expensive clothes? Fancy parties where no one actually really likes you?
Do I have an apartment? Yes, I do. A great one in fact.
Can I afford to eat what I want whenever I want? Yes I can.
Do I have a savings account? Yes.
Do my work put away money for my pension? Yes.
Please, do not worry about my economy situation.
I have friends that are into stocks and all that but it's not for me.
I do some part-time jobs on the side as well which brings in some extra €.
I respect everyones decision to live their life however they want.
I have already decided to travel on this journey. Case closed.
Sep 8, 2019, 9:52 am
#44
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London, Paris
Programs: LH HON, AF Platinum
Posts: 2,001
I guess it just comes down to what you value more--time with a close friend you'll never see again or two paychecks of sunk cost. I know what I would choose.
Like you said, life is short and money isn't everything.
Like you said, life is short and money isn't everything.
Sep 8, 2019, 12:19 pm
#45
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: SJC/SFO
Programs: UA lifetime gold; Hilton Gold; Marriott/SPG Plat; Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 2,954
But I agree that 2 salaries is only 2 salaries. F cabin is only F cabin and I am sure there will some other sale or mistake fare out there involving LX First class.
But the time you spend with somebody you love cannot be bought or re-visited later.