Yet again LX downgrade TLV aircraft [to A32S] in the last minute...

Old May 20, 2018, 4:37 am
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On the one hand it makes sense, and there are times of the year when one or two weekly flights run with the A321, however, LX has a great reputation among business travelers in TLV because of their A333/A343/B77W product, compared to LH, OS, etc who are flying A320 with European style business.

Last week I flew with LH from Munich to TLV and was one of 5 pax in the business section. Meanwhile on LX I have never seen a business cabin less than 70% full on A333/A343.

If they are switching from a consistent bed product to a variable product, the pax will go elsewhere because the unique advantage of LX has gone..
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Old May 20, 2018, 4:40 am
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Originally Posted by flymeoutofhere
On the one hand it makes sense, and there are times of the year when one or two weekly flights run with the A321, however, LX has a great reputation among business travelers in TLV because of their A333/A343/B77W product, compared to LH, OS, etc who are flying A320 with European style business.

Last week I flew with LH from Munich to TLV and was one of 5 pax in the business section. Meanwhile on LX I have never seen a business cabin less than 70% full on A333/A343.

If they are switching from a consistent bed product to a variable product, the pax will go elsewhere because the unique advantage of LX has gone..
I have updated my above post just after you replied. :P You might want to recheck it.
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Old May 20, 2018, 4:49 am
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Originally Posted by Nick Art


I just checked the seat maps and omg I have never seen an A321 with so many Business Class seats. There are a whopping 43 seats in Business available on this flight. That's nearly as much as in a A333! (btw when selecting the flight it says this flight has lie flat seats as it isa n A333, which when you look at the seatmap is obviously not true, pretty unacceptable to market lie flat seats where there are non imo).


This is unfortunately the norm (has always been that way, and only recently have they added the A330 clarification), it seems like they are trying to milk the business demand from TLV with the old marketing but different product.
BA is flying to TLV with some A321 with a special business configuration, with so much demand I'm surprised LX didn't consider the same thing. On another note, OS has added a 3rd daily flight to TLV for this winter, the market expects growth, seems like a strange time for LX to decide to cut or even balance capacity (B77W on day flight and A343 or A333 on night flight would be a smart growth decision in my opinion). Tourism in Israel is up 25% YoY, LY is in a worse and worse state with falling market share and a demising reputation in the local market, and LX has the best local reputation of all European airlines in the business segment.
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Old May 20, 2018, 4:58 am
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Originally Posted by flymeoutofhere
This is unfortunately the norm (has always been that way, and only recently have they added the A330 clarification), it seems like they are trying to milk the business demand from TLV with the old marketing but different product.
BA is flying to TLV with some A321 with a special business configuration, with so much demand I'm surprised LX didn't consider the same thing. On another note, OS has added a 3rd daily flight to TLV for this winter, the market expects growth, seems like a strange time for LX to decide to cut or even balance capacity (B77W on day flight and A343 or A333 on night flight would be a smart growth decision in my opinion). Tourism in Israel is up 25% YoY, LY is in a worse and worse state with falling market share and a demising reputation in the local market, and LX has the best local reputation of all European airlines in the business segment.
That clarification is just more confusing than clarifying because at first I thought It'd tell me that it's a lie flat seat because the flight was operated by an A330 and not that it's a lie flat seat only when the flight is operated by an A330 (which isn't true either, as we still have the A340s and B77W with lie flat seats that operate the flights sometimes). So imo it is not clarifying at all and rather misleading.

I'm still waiting for the day when some carrier in Europe decides to introduce an actual Business Class into their short haul planes (looks at Qatar), maybe we will see an introduction of that with the A321NeoLRs swiss is thinking about to order that will maybe jump over to the other short haul planes or maybe since new planes will have the range to be used for short haul and medium - long haul we'll see more Business seats intra Europe (thinking of MoM planes)? Yeah wishful thinking I know. Maybe one of us should dedicate his life for the sake of the others and become Manager of the LH Group and introduce that...
The BA A321 Business seats are actually the same as Swiss has on their A330s.
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Old May 20, 2018, 5:08 am
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Originally Posted by Nick Art
That clarification is just more confusing than clarifying because at first I thought It'd tell me that it's a lie flat seat because the flight was operated by an A330 and not that it's a lie flat seat only when the flight is operated by an A330 (which isn't true either, as we still have the A340s and B77W with lie flat seats that operate the flights sometimes). So imo it is not clarifying at all and rather misleading.

I'm still waiting for the day when some carrier in Europe decides to introduce an actual Business Class into their short haul planes (looks at Qatar), maybe we will see an introduction of that with the A321NeoLRs swiss is thinking about to order that will maybe jump over to the other short haul planes or maybe since new planes will have the range to be used for short haul and medium - long haul we'll see more Business seats intra Europe (thinking of MoM planes)? Yeah wishful thinking I know. Maybe one of us should dedicate his life for the sake of the others and become Manager of the LH Group and introduce that...
The BA A321 Business seats are actually the same as Swiss has on their A330s.
Agreed! Actually El Al for all their bad points do have an actual business class on their short haul aircraft, well more like US style with a 2-2 configuration with recliner seats.

I understand the point the airlines make about fleet consistency but when you have (in this case for example) run 2x daily flights to TLV for 15 years and they are stable and important feeders for your long-haul and European routes, surely it makes sense to configure a sub-fleet with real business class (also for LH) and win the entire business market, which would happen in a matter of weeks. TK in TLV had 8x flights a day (mostly with long-haul product) and Aeroflot has 5x a day with A330 and B777, a huge part of their success is the product in J. If LX or LH had a strong and consistent J product to TLV I am certain they could operate another 2 or 3 daily flights to feed their long-haul.

In the case of LX for example, a flight departing TLV around 8:30 which arrived to ZRH at 12:00 would be a perfect feed for the West Coast and Asian flights departing ZRH at 13:00-13:30. Now pax wanting those routings must take the 5am departure and wait 4-5 hours in ZRH.

A lot of airlines slightly seem to overlook TLV, and those who don't such as TK and lately in the low-cost area, Wizz and Ryanair, show just how much demand exists, and just keep adding more and more.
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Old May 20, 2018, 5:14 am
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Originally Posted by flymeoutofhere
Agreed! Actually El Al for all their bad points do have an actual business class on their short haul aircraft, well more like US style with a 2-2 configuration with recliner seats.

I understand the point the airlines make about fleet consistency but when you have (in this case for example) run 2x daily flights to TLV for 15 years and they are stable and important feeders for your long-haul and European routes, surely it makes sense to configure a sub-fleet with real business class (also for LH) and win the entire business market, which would happen in a matter of weeks. TK in TLV had 8x flights a day (mostly with long-haul product) and Aeroflot has 5x a day with A330 and B777, a huge part of their success is the product in J. If LX or LH had a strong and consistent J product to TLV I am certain they could operate another 2 or 3 daily flights to feed their long-haul.

In the case of LX for example, a flight departing TLV around 8:30 which arrived to ZRH at 12:00 would be a perfect feed for the West Coast and Asian flights departing ZRH at 13:00-13:30. Now pax wanting those routings must take the 5am departure and wait 4-5 hours in ZRH.

A lot of airlines slightly seem to overlook TLV, and those who don't such as TK and lately in the low-cost area, Wizz and Ryanair, show just how much demand exists, and just keep adding more and more.
We two should totally be hired as the two sole Lufthansa Group fleet and route network managers.
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Old May 20, 2018, 6:17 am
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Originally Posted by Nick Art
We two should totally be hired as the two sole Lufthansa Group fleet and route network managers.
Haha totally, I'm in!
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Old May 21, 2018, 8:28 am
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Originally Posted by Nick Art
I'm still waiting for the day when some carrier in Europe decides to introduce an actual Business Class into their short haul planes (looks at Qatar), maybe we will see an introduction of that with the A321NeoLRs swiss is thinking about to order that will maybe jump over to the other short haul planes or maybe since new planes will have the range to be used for short haul and medium - long haul we'll see more Business seats intra Europe (thinking of MoM planes)? Yeah wishful thinking I know. Maybe one of us should dedicate his life for the sake of the others and become Manager of the LH Group and introduce that...
While I would love to see that happen (and would be much more likely to upgrade myself into J as a result), I can see why airlines don't do it - the loss of flexibility.

Earlier this years, I've flown PRG-CDG-AMS on Air France. Same Airbus, either A320 or A321, I'm not sure.

First flight, there were about 2 or maybe 3 rows of Business class. About 2 folks in there. Quite possibly they were connecting to a long-haul in CDG, but that's immaterial TBH.
Got out, walked to the departure level in CDG, got back in in a couple of minutes. 7 or so rows business, almost full.

That's some 30-40 more business pax.than the flight immediately before. In the very same cabin.

And it's not like Y was half empty on PRG-CDG either - I think if the Airbus was configured with "real" business class, it would not have enough Y capacity, possibly even not enough Y+J capacity.
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Old May 21, 2018, 8:45 am
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Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
While I would love to see that happen (and would be much more likely to upgrade myself into J as a result), I can see why airlines don't do it - the loss of flexibility.

Earlier this years, I've flown PRG-CDG-AMS on Air France. Same Airbus, either A320 or A321, I'm not sure.

First flight, there were about 2 or maybe 3 rows of Business class. About 2 folks in there. Quite possibly they were connecting to a long-haul in CDG, but that's immaterial TBH.
Got out, walked to the departure level in CDG, got back in in a couple of minutes. 7 or so rows business, almost full.

That's some 30-40 more business pax.than the flight immediately before. In the very same cabin.

And it's not like Y was half empty on PRG-CDG either - I think if the Airbus was configured with "real" business class, it would not have enough Y capacity, possibly even not enough Y+J capacity.
Agree but I think there's a big difference between most European flights which are 60-90 mins and the 'medium haul' destinations like TLV where the pax are on the aircraft for 5 hours and flights are often overnight (whilst no overnight flights between European cities).
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Old May 21, 2018, 8:53 am
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Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
While I would love to see that happen (and would be much more likely to upgrade myself into J as a result), I can see why airlines don't do it - the loss of flexibility.

Earlier this years, I've flown PRG-CDG-AMS on Air France. Same Airbus, either A320 or A321, I'm not sure.

First flight, there were about 2 or maybe 3 rows of Business class. About 2 folks in there. Quite possibly they were connecting to a long-haul in CDG, but that's immaterial TBH.
Got out, walked to the departure level in CDG, got back in in a couple of minutes. 7 or so rows business, almost full.

That's some 30-40 more business pax.than the flight immediately before. In the very same cabin.

And it's not like Y was half empty on PRG-CDG either - I think if the Airbus was configured with "real" business class, it would not have enough Y capacity, possibly even not enough Y+J capacity.
Well obviously the load in the different classes varies significantly. I think here everybody is aware on why European Business Class is only Economy Seats with a seat free in the middle. So that they can vary the cabin for demand. Yet as far as I have seen by the Amadeus porgram the Business seat count is determined in advance (by how many expected pax there are) and rarely changed. Only when there is overbooking in economy for example. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. (Example: If you book a flight on which you see 4 rows of Business Class it's rather certain that flight has also four rows of Business Class.)
I'm not quite sure how fluent that dynamc with Economy - Business Cabin shifting is, I'd be really interested in how it actually works. (and not base my view on it by hearsay like I did above).

But to come back to m point, as the airlines from what I know already pretty much knows with how many seats in what class the plane will fly why not have like 2-3 different layouts you use depending on demand for different routes? I know planning would become much more complicated but other airlines seem to have it work fine. Just look at the american airlines (let's ignore the overbooking stories here for a second as I'm sure they are not only due the lack of being able to shift the cabin class seat numbers) or the gulf ones and even most asian ones. So it does seem to work and that profitable as well. Obviously I don't see changing them something in a way that will be more complicated and less profitable for them only for the customer comforts sake
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Old May 21, 2018, 8:54 am
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Originally Posted by flymeoutofhere
Agree but I think there's a big difference between most European flights which are 60-90 mins and the 'medium haul' destinations like TLV where the pax are on the aircraft for 5 hours and flights are often overnight (whilst no overnight flights between European cities).
Agreed in TLV case, but the question here is - can airlines afford to have a separate fleet just for these destinations? How many of them are there - and is there enough scope to utilise the aircraft properly?

Maybe in the future with entyr of new MoM types, as transatlantic narrowbody flying becomes feasible from European hubs, this can be reassessed....
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Old May 21, 2018, 9:01 am
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Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
Agreed in TLV case, but the question here is - can airlines afford to have a separate fleet just for these destinations? How many of them are there - and is there enough scope to utilise the aircraft properly?

Maybe in the future with entyr of new MoM types, as transatlantic narrowbody flying becomes feasible from European hubs, this can be reassessed....
Agreed. But I think with all the numbers they have right now they could plan ahead rather well. (The amadeus system does already work that way anyway). So It'd definetly be possible. The thing is I don't know how much less profitable flying a sub fleet of planes with actual Business Class actually is and I'm not sure Swiss will invite us over and show us their numbers just so we can discuss about it here :P

I mean having a sub fleet of a few A321neo LRs with actual Business Class might actually be rather profitable especially as one could fly to destinations like Teheran or Douala or even Baku and Yerevan or Almaty or Jeddah and Riyad profitable. (Again, I don't have any numbers I can show you to prove it's profitable or not). I mean I'm intrigued to actually build up a timetable to show you how one could use a small sub fleet for just these destinations, but I sadly don't have time

A fact that might actually not be that important is that Swiss likes to show off as being the only airline that offers First Class to all its long Haul destinations. I mean I wouldn't have a problem with not having First Class to some small destinations but the guy in charge maybe thinks otherwise (idk, psychology is weird). And even though I'd love to see a three class A321 (like the AA Transcon one) I don't see it happening naytime soon XD

Last edited by Nick Art; May 21, 2018 at 9:10 am
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Old May 21, 2018, 9:14 am
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BA has the sub-fleet and has continued to maintain it, does that say something?
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Old May 21, 2018, 9:16 am
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BA have a very nice J product on their A321s. Full lie-flat to LHR with good connections to destinations westbound although often an awful return schedule to TLV involving a double overnight flight which I try to avoid like the plague. I'm guessing the introduction of the TLV-SFO nonstops on UA have diminished demand for west coast connections through ZRH especially now in summer that UA have upgauged from the 787-8 to the 777-300.

The only reason to fly LX out of TLV was for the A330s so I guess I'll be on other airlines going forward.
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Old May 21, 2018, 9:24 am
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Originally Posted by NYTA
BA have a very nice J product on their A321s. Full lie-flat to LHR with good connections to destinations westbound although often an awful return schedule to TLV involving a double overnight flight which I try to avoid like the plague. I'm guessing the introduction of the TLV-SFO nonstops on UA have diminished demand for west coast connections through ZRH especially now in summer that UA have upgauged from the 787-8 to the 777-300.

The only reason to fly LX out of TLV was for the A330s so I guess I'll be on other airlines going forward.
But the seat count has actually increased with the equipment change... (The other rotation was switched to a B77W: J stayed the same and Y has an increase of about 75 seats. Variable as the A321 config can be changed)
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