rny321

Since the difference between Marriott Gold and Platinum was modest and years of status weren't relevant, once someone reached LTG whether it took one year or twenty to complete the next 250 nights and earn 400K points made little difference. The mid-year change and shift from points to years of status as the second prong of achieving status hurt people who with sufficient notice could have reached the higher status tier. Someone who just missed qualifying for LTPP may not be happy with forever losing the opportunity to do so.

spgplat21

But at the end of the day this person still ends up with a lifetime status (new LTP) that was an improvement in almost every way over the lifetime status they had (LTG) and the highest lifetime status they previously would have been able to obtain (legacy MR LTP). So I agree it could have been even more positive for legacy MR members, but I think it would be hard for a legacy MR member to argue they are now worse off in the new program (other than the folks who obtained gold status from credit cards and airline status matches, who now only get the watered down gold).

rny321

For me, United Silver, which came with MR Platinum, was the most significant tangible benefit. The points difference and the Platinum arrival gift were less important. I believe that MR LTP and annual platinum received the same benefits and were equal on the upgrade lists. Although the differences between Gold and Platinum weren't large, for someone who expected many future years of loyalty the total value of LTP over LTG was worth pursuing.

I am pleased that select suites have been added to the benefits, but I have no idea how often a LTP in the new program will end up being upgraded to them, as they will presumably be behind LTPP and those using SNA's on the upgrade list. Based on pre and post-merger experience as a Platinum member, I am surprised when I don't get a suite upgrade in Asia and almost shocked when I do in the US.

yeunganson

I generally agree that it was a mistake to have an unobtainable tier like the Lifetime Plat Premier of the new merged program. I would be so chill if they have that tier open and required some hard number like 15 years and 1000 nights or something. I have "Part 2" of my thread because of the unhappiness of knowing there is a tier unobtainable and this self-inflicted error that could have avoided if taken some input from top tier members of both programs.

In the macro view, those that are making 750 life-time nights probably have many years as Platinum member anyways. So it's not a reset on their earning ways. I did have a flyertalk member saying sometimes there are "down" years as consultant thus travel may spike and drop in given years. All of this only means a delay on the date of earning lifetime status (perhaps a few years or even half a decade). If it takes 13 years to be a lifetime member and in life you need to work 30 - 35 years, I don't see how one can "run out of time" to earn the status eventually. It shouldn't matter if you earned the lifetime status on your 15th year of working in a career or the 20th year working in a career - because you still have another 10-15 more years to work before retirement. Fundamentally, lifetime status taking what feels like a lifetime to earn doesn't seem out of place. For most of us still in working, I don't see people stop travelling and working as soon as they hit Lifetime status.

There were comments on the why I am concerned how others earn status. The intention is different though. My view is a tug-of-war on how to mold this new program with various interests. I outlined what I believe what a solid program would be - an honest one, loop-hole, gimmick free and everyone earned most the hard way (ie no free-loading). The benefits should be solid and real - no crazy black-out periods for hotels or an entire luxurious chain opting out of the program. Basically, I express my desire this new merge program be more like an enhanced Starwood's SPG than Marriott's Membership Reward.

I do feel some Marriott Members thinks if you don't like the program, join something else. That is one way of seeing it. There is another way and this is a very SPG thing (because it didn't happen on AIr Canada forum for example). If you don't like the program, advocate and provide feedback and change it. The decade of SPG experience, the SPG team listens and we have seen program change for the better. My advocate of Airline-like System Wide Upgrades turned to the Suite Night Award program (that could further improve to guarantee suite night awards). SPG members here asked for years for a Lifetime program and SPG eventually delivered one (and enhancements to introduce Plat 50 Plat 75 & Plat 100). When the program merged and SPG lifetime members were excluded to this unobtainable tier, we all provided feedback and I bet a group of SPG Lifers with 750+ nights advocated even stronger than what is shown on flyertalk and low and behold the program changed before implementation. All of this mean they open to change and feedback. I truely believe it is our Starwood team within the merger that is pushing a change in culture.

All this means is this unobtainable tier can be reopened to people in the future just like Lifetime Platinum Premier was opened to SPG this year. I believe the merged SPG/Marriott team wants to see some data in the next 2 years to see how our membership is performing and if other aspects are implemented as expected (like those Suite Night Awards are being taken seriously by hotels).

Ord Liza

(bolding added)

I have tried to refrain from commenting on language like this. I hoped that you would see that it is one thing to say that you think program features should be one way or another and to recognize that people can have different opinions and quite another thing to label features with which you disagree and the people who use such features as not being honest, as being freeloaders, etc. Clearly my hope was misplaced. You are not just trying to give input in order to help create a better program going forward. If you were, there would be no reason to be so disrespectful of others.

MSPeconomist

Exactly. As I said above, to some SPG folks, I'm scum of the earth as a MR PP and MR LTP even though it was EARNED with no credit card nights ever, no meeting nights ever, no birthday nights, and never any credit for second/third rooms. I was given rollover automatically according to the T&C of the MR program but I have so far over a thousand lifetime legacy MR nights without rollover that it doesn't matter. I'm also legacy SPG LTP, which I guess might make me one of these honest and honorable SPG elites on nights when I'm sleeping with SPG, but I'm not sure whether folks here expect me to renounce my MR history to be accepted as one of them.....

yeunganson

It's just a different perspective. Bringing in value judgement adds another dimension on a program. Features I don't like such as double accounting so the some of the roll-over nights count twice, we can discuss if it was some feature. I just trust my gut and make a judgement - it's not a feature, it's glitch, bad programming and Marriott hasn't fix the problem since roll-overnights started.

I don't think any person that uses Rewarding Events to book weddings and corporate conferences have any beef of my post on the Rewarding Event section of my post. I am pretty confident I did not imply those people spending thousands on a meeting (or even having cantering service) are being dishonest. I did say Rewarding Events implementation has a flaw that allows people to book meetings without a spending threshold so people can book 1 hr meetings and get 10 nights. This type of flaw encourages dishonorable behavior.

I guess the point of contention is this.

Some Marriott members think the original creators of the program did think of scenarios like those small community organizers that may just book a $100 meeting for 1 hour or so and it was intended that small businesses like those get the same 10 night credit reward as those bigger spenders that book for conferences, tours, corporate retreat and weddings. So the Rewarding Events is performing exactly as expected. If this is true, I have been a prick and probably I should eat some crow. Marriott is just happy to fill meeting rooms and any business big or small is good. Eligible nights come easy at Marriott once you know the program in and out.

I saw the Rewarding Event program and came to the opposite conclusion. My gut tells me the Marriott team was aiming for the event organizer group that does those conferences, corporate retreats and weddings and such. They did not contemplate a type of use like those small meetings or "meeting runs". I don't have to prove to myself "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold. I just need to see for myself in the balance of probability, it is more likely than not those small meetings and "meeting runs" were not the intended use of the Rewarding Events program. (What hoops I went through can be seen in part 2 of my post) First part is a Marriott Corporate staff that says you need rooms in addition to meetings (it's possible he is wrong but it's their staff against their written terms) . Second part was the need of use of Group Posting Tool and just by the name it should imply not a small event. Lastly just looking the use of Group Posting Tool which is a multipage form asking for breakdown on room revenue, catering, Audio video...etc and then it needs to go through multi-level approval before it can go out of the franchisee hotel. All of this sounds serious enough to convince me it's not some simple tool for a $100 meeting. So if this part of my conclusion is true.... What to do with Marriott members using the Rewarding Program not as intended.... I believe almost everyone is reasonable honest and reasonably honorable and we do like to cheat a little in the expense of others when opportunity arises. This includes myself as I am no saint myself. So I still think it is important for the merge program to aim to limit the chances of members falling into opportunistic behavior and encourage honorable behavior. To put it in a technical non-value wording.... The gap between the expert member and the mere moderately knowledgeable member in the "extraction of benefit" out of the new program should be narrow. In other words, if all other factors equal, the expert member knowing the program inside out and the knowledgeable member should get similar benefit out of the program. The elite status should be awarded with major correlation to money spent on the franchise and the frequency of visiting the hotels. The benefits should be personal, recognizable and solid. And you know... the emotional connection thing...

HollyGlen

You could equally argue that "mattress runs", e.g. swapping Starwood hotels every night over a week's stay in a city to make Plat-25, were "exploited" by SPG members in the same way MR members were "exploiting" the meeting rules.

And really, it's not for you or me (a fellow SPG Lifer, btw) to pronounce what is dishonourable or not. Maybe Marriott management came to a view that it was worthwhile rewarding small meetings because they were an easy, low-commitment intro for new clients to the hotel. A small meeting could lead to many other things, e.g. future big meeting / big event, future restaurant spend, future hotel nights, etc. It's incredibly clear to me that Marriott places value not on the one-hour meeting itself but on the potential introduction of the property and its various services to the organisers and of course, the meeting attendees.

And the odds that people would exploit this for a "meeting run"? Quite clearly, Marriott were prepared to take those odds, in exchange for the marketing benefits above. And SPG were prepared to run the risk of "mattress runners", despite the incredible administrative headache it gave the hotel staff to have to check you in and out every night.

Ord Liza

I read "value judgement" and then skim to "dishonorable behavior" and then frankly I stop reading. If you want to criticize people who disagree with you or behave differently from you, move it to OMNI PR. This is a hotel program and my personal opinion is that discussions of the program should not extend to trashing the members thereof.

pinniped

As someone who spent nights in the utterly dreadful Sheraton Dallas North, alternated with nights in the absolutely wonderful Le Meridien a couple blocks away, I can confirm that this has happened at Starwood before.

yeunganson

The "SPG mattress run" is just booking a hotel room and sleeping in it for a night for whatever reason. It's not the same. I will absolutely have no problem if people booked a Marriott and host a wedding banquet re- celebrate every week.for the sake of the eligible nights. Both cases, I see it as a proper use of the program.

I narrowed it down to what we disagree upon. You believe Marriott management when establishing Marriott's Rewarding Events has known about the small events (eg 1 hr meetings) and have it included as intended use. So all these "meeting runs" are perfectly legit.

I am in the belief the creators of Rewarding Events did not think of the scenario of using the program for small events (ie 1 hr meetings). I come to that conclusion after conversation with Corporate Staff and looking at the "Group Posting Tool" and how the multi-page layout with breakdown in catering, rooms, meetings, audio-equipment...etc.

Had my own discovery came to the conclusion that Marriott did thought about these small meetings and heck.. if the Marriott Corp rep said something like "Small meetings? We welcome any meetings and welcome the business. Yeah! Go nuts. The group tool is easy to use and here's an express small-scale form for small meetings. We at the backend treat it just the same as the long form...etc etc"... If Marriott say something remotely close to that or if their instruction manual / internal webpages of the "Group Posting Tool" made references to small scale meetings, I would absolutely not have said "Loophole 2". In fact, part 2 of my self reflection would be a joyful tone telling all the SPG Lifers how to "make it" to 750 nights by Rewarding Events. Not only that, I would be way open to helping all these Marriott Members by linking the hotel contacts I have with all that demand there.

GoPhils

pinniped

<-- do they make a bigger one of these?

UA-NYC

"What-about"-ism...there is a difference between one which gets you 10% of the way to Plat, vs. one that starts off at 20% of the way and can easily get you to 50% and above.

Lappe

I know that feeding trolls is not smart, but feel free to start here for more "discovery": https://www.marriott.com/meeting-eve...ig-to-small.mi