khabah

THIS - aside from matching people to it, open it up for all of us to aim for. I'd have been more content not knowing LTPP exists/if it were a 'secret' tier than to publicly announce it as something exclusive to a certain group of people that was locked for everyone else. I'm a passionate Marriott/SPG devotee and should have the ability to get LTPP down the line with the business I plan on giving the company.

khabah

ralfkrippner

Absolutely!

Match spg LTP 750+ nights into LTPP and give everybody the possibility to earn it at 1.000 nights and 20 years Platinum. You could even add a minimum age to that aiming exlusively at those preparing for less travel at 60+ years of age e.g.

Isochronous

I agree!

clarkef

I agree

epiahtles

X-ON

Ok, since you refuse to understand here we go; this is the definition of the objectively fair mapping of the initial LT Tier in the merged program lets call it MPG in the absence of anything better
Define the following sets:
Activity MR: Am={#nights,#elite year,#points}
Activity SPG As={#nights,#elite year,#points}
Ai where I is an element in {m,s}
Tiers MPG tmpg is an element in the set TMPG={LTS,LTG,LTP,LTPP}
Tiers MR: tm is an element in the set TMR={LTS,LTG,LTP}
Tiers SPG ts is an element in the set TSPG={LTG,LTP}

and the following functions:
I. Maps tiers from SPG/MR to MPG
Gm: TPMR=>TMPG=>tmpg
Gs: TSPG=>TMPG=>tmpg
II. Maps activity to tiers in MR and SPG
Fm: Ai => TMR=> tm
Fs: Ai =>TSPG=> ts

Now we can write:
Gm(Fm(Am))=>tmpgMR1 (This the current mapping for MR members))
Gs(Fs(As)) => tmpgSPG1 (This the current mapping for SPG members)

Now define the following two reciprocal mappings:
Gs(Fs(Am)) => tmpgMR2 (This is the reciprocal mapping for MR members)
Gm(Fm(As)) => tmpgSPG2 (This is the reciprocal mapping for SPG members)

Hence the obtained fair LT tiers would be
LT MPG MR = max(tmpgMR1, tmpgMR2)
LT MPG SPG = max(tmpgSPG1, tmpgSPG2)

BillBurn

I am a Marriott LTP who supports SPG LTPs with 750+ nights and 667K SPG points also getting grandfathered into LTPP. That said, I think when people start doing math about all the other folks who should be grandfathered into LTPP for some reason or the other it's important to keep in mind two overriding factors:

1) Marriott clearly has a preference not to have ANY LTPPs at all. There was clearly some reason (PR, legal or otherwise) that they decided to "grandfather" the existing Marriott LTPs into LTPP, but Marriott has made it clear that this is a one time deal and there won't be LTPP going forward. I think this is a mistake and that this may change at some point in time, but they clearly didn't want the new program to have a LTPP tier and I would be very surprised if they did an about face on this in the short term.

2) Marriott is likely above all solving for a KEY constraint which is that they can only grandfather so many people into LTPP without devaluing the whole tier to such an extent that it is meaningless. This means that whatever "math" is done, the answer still has to equal LTPPs less than some number. It would surprise me greatly if Marriott did not already run most if not all of the equations outlined above and concluded, given their constraints, that they could only "afford" to make Marriott LTPs into LTPP.

Given these points, I think it will the chances of them increasing the number of LTPPs are VERY low in general, but especially low for anyone other than SPG LTPs with 750+ nights and 667K+ SPG points. I don't have a problem with people petitioning Marriott for redress, but everyone should keep their expectations low and realize that this effort is likely a very long shot at best.

X-ON

In principle I agree with what you said ... The implication of the simple math in the previous post is actually exactly what you said with a small exception: The only SPG members being grandfathered as LTPP are SPG LTP with 750+ nights and 2M+ points and LTG nonLT fulfilling the same criteria, I think you agree with me that the later is probably a very small number.

My point with the math was just to illustrate why the current mapping is objectivly unfair, however as always in a business situation it's not what is fair that is important it is what is profitable. All decisions is subject to a cost benefit analysis so if MAR comes to the conclusion that minting too many LTP/LTPP supress profitability, the LT SPG that is getting shafted and potentially walk away is just not material enough to effect the bottom line.

kaizen7

Quite interesting as what will be the reason Marriott try to limit (and eventually eliminate Lifetime PLTPP tier) as the difference between PLT and PLTPP is actually not too significant.
More points, and 48 hours guarantee (with RACK rate. not that most people willing to pay)

Unless PLTPP (lifetime or not) have higher priority on room upgrade (maybe?) and Marriott want that benefit is extended mainly to members who actually reach 75 nights and above

imverge

From Gary Leff:

https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea...​​

stimpy

As has been pointed out a couple times in these threads, there are only a tiny, tiny number of SPG LTP's over 750 nights. Likely half of them have already posted in this thread! OK, maybe a bit more than that, but still nothing compared to all the Marriott LTP's. So please do the math on that!

phltraveler

Here's my theory.

The Merger:
MR comes in with the merger. They're not ready to merge programs yet with SPG, but they want to capture spend from people who would have stayed at a non-Marriott hotel if the nearest SPG option to their destination was inconvenient. To not hurt anyone's feelings (and because the SPG Elites in the Plat tier included people with 100+ nights and spend), they map the "metals" equally with the status match (SPG Gold to MR Gold, SPG Plat to MR Plat). Temporary, nobody is mad, they had something in an effectively separate program that they didn't have before. To keep status matching on the other side, they have to renew by hitting the old criteria in one program or the other - so SPG Plat50s who match to MR Plat have to stay 25 stays/50 nights again at SPG to requalify, or MR for 75 nights, so basically it becomes no easier to keep status in either program because of the matching...

Then they have to crunch the actual numbers for realizing what the elite patterns/#s/stay behaviors are going to be, who is getting what bonuses, and what will ultimately come out of the merger. And the ultimate conclusion is, on published requirements, the SPG tiers are easier to qualify for. 1) Certain credit cards, like the Plat Amex, gave SPG gold out the gate. 2) Anyone willing to hotel hop on a nightly basis could get SPG Gold in as little as 10 nights (1 night per stay = 10 stays) or SPG Plat in as little as 25 nights (25 one stay nights = 25 nights and stays). The published nights requirement for SPG gold (25) is half of MR Gold (50) and the nights requirement of plat (50) is two thirds that of MR Plat (75). When applied based on the nights criteria (which applied in both programs), SPG LTG (250 nights + five years at gold or above) maps with Marriott Lifetime Silver (250 nights + 1.2 million lifetime points [equivalent to 400K Starpoints]), and SPG LTP (500 nights + 10 years at Plat) mapped with MR Lifetime Gold (500 nights + 1.6 million points [533,333 Starpoints equivalent]).

The problem:
Marriott has a conundrum too. They are merging, they don't need headaches on benefit reductions or shafting people. So in groups of people to anger:

1. They don't also want to piss off the credit card holders and companies like Chase who have been promoting that their card is automatic silver due to the yearly anniversary qualifying nights, or Amex (who gives SPG Gold based on SPG Amex $30K spend or automatically on cards like the Platinum). Nor do they want to piss off people in status matching programs (example: United Gold Elites get Marriott Gold complimentary through RewardsPlus)
2. They don't want to anger the regular non-lifetime SPG crowd by dropping their "metal" from gold in old program to silver in new one, or plat in old program to gold in combined program.
3. They don't want to anger current Marriott Elites by dropping the qualification requirements at a time where they are merging a much larger group of combined members with a much larger group of combined properties to qualify at more conveniently/easily. They also don't want to create incentives for these elites to stay any less and then start hopping on qualification for another hotel chain.
4. They don't want to piss off legacy elites because any still loyal to Marriott (Staying regularly) can reduce or stop their stay activity. By all apparent accounts, Marriott will be both the program with more domestic legacy elites, and the survivor in name.
5. Marriott also wants to create incentive for people continuing to stay in the future, as they did with the additional benefits at SPG Plat 75 and SPG Plat 100.

The tiers:
So how can we resolve all of these problems and tick off the smallest group of people.

1) Add a fourth tier (more on that in a moment, I know the 100 nights + 20K spend requirement).
2) Drop the names of the "metals" to require fewer nights.

Think about it.

1. Silver 10 night qualification, is 10% points bonus, you still get it as a freebie from the SPG/Marriott Amex (but they can and did restrict the 15 bonus nights to one account a year). SPG did not have a corresponding status with such low night requirements. Silver gains priority late checkout (based on availability). Silver is not effectively demoted.
2. Gold is dropped to 25 nights a year, matching the SPG nights requirement, and a new tier for MR at 25 nights. It's still not an automatic from the credit card. Gold still gets enhanced high speed internet (a benefit that costs hotels essentially nothing), still gets a 25% points bonus (the bonus for legacy MR Gold), 2PM late checkout, and gets the addition of a small welcome gift of points (which MR gold did not get previously, but SPG Gold did).
3. The legacy MR Gold criteria (Plat) is dropped to 50 nights and rebranded the new MR Plat matching SPG Plat criteria. 50% points bonus matches legacy MR Plat and SPG Plat, 4PM late checkout, welcome amenity, lounge access, room type guarantee. Anyone who hits the status in a given year (50 nights) gets 5 suite night awards like they did under SPG. People who are merged from SPG Plat (50 nights @ 10 years) match here. Lounge access is retained, and legacy MR Gold is grandfathered in.
4. The legacy MR Plat Criteria (75 nights) is rebranded to Platinum Premier. Previously an unpublished tier in MR, they minimally differentiate it in the merged program: 75% point bonus instead of 50, and the 48 hour guarantee. Marriott Plats currently qualifying can feel content that the bar was not lowered; legacy MR LTPS (750 nights + 2 million points, and before 2012, 10 years of membership with at least one year at Plat) can feel happy that they have the same benefits (including 48 hour guarantee, and that they are effectively the highest tier. SPG Plat 75s have a target point here, although the points bonus (75% in combined program, 100% in legacy SPG) is technically a drop. At least everyone gets 5 more SNAs if they hit the status in the year (same as current qualifying SPG Plat 75, and MR did not have before).
5. To give the previous MR Plat Premiers (unpublished, top 3% of members based on unpublished criteria thought to include both spend and 120+ nights) and SPG Plat 100s a target place, they drop two more benefits if you reach 100 nights + $20K a year in spend: An Ambassador (never a published benefit for any Marriott rewards tier, published benefit for SPG Plat 100) and Your24 (a benefit previously provided at SPG Plat 75, but never within MR).

Wait, isn't ambassador status a fifth tier?
Yes and no. If you hit the $20K "qualifying spend" (not clear if that's all folio items or just rooms or what yet) and 100 nights, then you get three benefits that the new Plat Premier 75 night doesn't (100% bonus rate over 75% bonus points rate, Your24, Ambassador), giving you something to chase for. However, members.marriott.com is careful to not refer to it as a separate tier, just "Platinum Premier Elite with Ambassador". If they wanted to, they could have called it unobtanium, Palladium, Diamond, whatever, something different. Unless they're saying it as "Platinum Premier with Ambassador". This creates incentive to chase beyond 75 nights, and a point to distinguish currently SPG Plat 100s from the base population. It lets Marriott dismiss the fact that Marriott legacy LTPs are no longer in the "highest tier" by saying it's the "highest tier plus". Other than the slightly increased bonus points rate (new MR PP matches legacy MR LTP at 75%), and Ambassador & Your24 (benefits legacy MR LTPs never had), it's no different, it's just the status they're grandfathered into "plus".

Time will tell if Ambassadors truly get different treatment at properties. It's possible that due to IT limitations on reservation systems at front desks or deliberate choice, that a new PP100 only shows up the same as a PP75.

Who wins and loses:
Note that I mean this by PR in part. Marriott, and most members win - at least on paper:

1. Most members will retain the level they had, and not lose any benefits. Most will gain some benefits from the relevant SPG tiers. Allows Marriott to say they are taking "the best of both programs".
2. Marriott gets to argue on the whole that elite members are earning more points. This is true because gold (dropped to 25 nights) still earns 25% bonus (earned 20% in legacy Marriott Rewards at 25 nights because it was silver), Plat (legacy gold) earns 50% points bonus instead of 25% (legacy gold @ 50 nights), plat premiers (old MR Plat) now earns 75% instead of 50%, and Plat 100s now earn 100% bonus. This allows Marriott to run the statistics and say members are earning more points on average in the new program.
3. Current MR and SPG Plat and Plat 75s will still earn Suite Night Awards that trump complimentary space available upgrades at the desk, creating incentive to maintain status rather than coast on lifetime.
4. Current MR/SPG qualifiers happy that they will not lose benefits or have inflated elite ranks
5. Legacy Lifetime MR members feel their position was preserved based on yearly night count * 10 years.

Now the losers:

1. Silver elite becomes more devalued by a 10% bonus on points earned for stays rather than 20%
2. Current SPG fall abruptly from the temporary status match. They don't really lose much in the way of benefits at the new mapped elite tier. (Note: SPG 75 loses Your24 and 100% bonus to the new 100 night level)
3. Lifetime SPG members who would have met the qualifying criteria for old MR LTP / new MR LTPP if their activity (standalone or combined SPG + MR) as they are demoted to gold/plat in new program at the old lifetime silver/gold qualification criteria in MR. They can't really argue they "lost" anything however as the benefits similarly map, citing Marriott's statement that lifetime status would be "recognized".
4. (Maybe) Anyone saving up points with the award chart adjustments for peak/onpeak and category changes. If everyone will be earning more points in the new program, that creates an obvious incentive to raise redemption rates.
5. Anyone who credit card matched to MR Gold through benefits or to MR Gold from United, as apparently the match to the "metal" will remain the same, but Gold loses lounge access, breakfast, potential complimentary upgrade to suite.

james1

+1 here.

I have over 1200 nights with SPG and only 200 nights with MR. I would think a combined 1400 nights would be granted LTPPE status...

schley

Can we please keep the focus to those wanting to agree with the petition. Thank you.

phaka2

I agree