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Marriott LTPs should have gotten LTP - not LTPP

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Old Apr 19, 18, 7:53 am
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by Starwood Lurker IV View Post
Hi Gosh4rks,

Lifetime members will retain their Lifetime status and all three Lifetime Elite tiers will remain.
Members will be assigned to new Lifetime Elite tiers as follows:
members.marriott.com/marriottrewards

Best regards,

Ahmed El Tagoury
Specialist, Social Media
Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide, LLC
Sir, you are 100% going to lose your historically receptive audience on FT if you post something that everyone on this site knows is patently false. As has been stated for a couple of days now, there is another tier of LTPP that has supposedly been made available to MR members only.

In other threads, there are SPG LTPs who have called and received written affirmation that SPG LTPs would map to LTPP, but there are others who doubt this (some of whom seem to wish to remain superior by being from MR program).
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Old Apr 19, 18, 7:54 am
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by vanabb View Post
Yes but aren't there four lifetime levels now, not three?
- Lifetime Silver Marriott -> will be Lifetime Silver Elite
- Lifetime Gold SPG -> will be Lifetime Gold Elite
- Lifetime Gold Marriott -> will Lifetime Platinum Elite
- Lifetime Platinum SPG -> will be Lifetime Platinum Elite
- Lifetime Platinum Marriott -> will be Lifetime Platinum Premier Elite

There is no clearly described path from SPG LTP to the upcoming Lifetime Platinum Premier Elite. This is the question that is not being answered.
It's not described because there is no "official" path for SPG LTP to LTPP.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 8:36 am
  #18  
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Originally Posted by UA-NYC View Post
So somebody please explain why it was deemed necessary to make a one time exception for them to give LTPP, when that status level cannot be achieved going forward.
The only people who can explain why a decision is made are those who participate in the discussion and make the decision. As far as I know, none of them are here on FT.

Each person can evaluate their perception of the value of continuing to beat this horse on FT. I believe SPG/MR are fully aware of the concern, given Lurker presence here and Marriott Insider discussion and commitment to get an answer. I agree with above - if you want to continue voicing concern, direct it at those who can make a change.

Originally Posted by vanabb View Post
There is no clearly described path from SPG LTP to the upcoming Lifetime Platinum Premier Elite. This is the question that is not being answered.
I believe it's clearly described that there is none. (Or, to be snarky, the clearly described path is to earn 750 nights and 2M points in the MR program by 12/31/2018)
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Old Apr 19, 18, 8:56 am
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by rebadc View Post
Marriott bought Starwood
I have no issue with Marriott LTP's getting LTPPE.

Can we all just move on.
Good grief! Yet another of the 'vanquished must suffer in silence' crowd. Yes, it's acknowledged that we should have stayed at home buying takeout, toothpaste and toilet paper on the MR CC , thereby so quickly accumulating nights. How very foolish of us to have wasted that opportunity, choosing instead to actually stay in those very expensive ( now Marriott run) hotels. We should be grateful to be assigned the second tier status in recognition of our failings.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 9:38 am
  #20  
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Folks, some posts which just repeated previously-expressed viewpoints have been removed.

There’s a lot going on at the moment, so please try and keep threads clear of “As I have said before....” posts.

Thank you for your co-operation.

the mod team
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Old Apr 19, 18, 9:41 am
  #21  
 
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Originally Posted by paolo64 View Post
Yes, it's acknowledged that we should have stayed at home buying takeout, toothpaste and toilet paper on the MR CC , thereby so quickly accumulating nights.
We know you couldn't have done that because SPG members were too busy staying in Four Points and Alofts where they would get two additional rooms, leave them empty, charge them to their employer and get three credits for one night. Wham! In a paltry 17 stays you have a Plat. And why charge TP and toothpaste to the cc when even without a charge you were almost instantly Plat just by getting the Amex?

Do I believe that is how most people, or even more than a very small number of people, got their status? Of course not, but that's how preposterous it sounds when MR LTP are wrongly demeaned. We are not your enemy. Most of us had no or very few cc nights and could qualify with well over 750 nights even if those are backed out. Rollover nights only existed for a few years. We are not your enemy. If you read through the boards most of us think that an SPG Plat with over 750 nights should qualify for LTPP in the new program. SPG members throwing us under the bus with this thread and the post above makes that support difficult. You can object to the unfairness of how SPG LTP >750 are being treated with our support or you can fight us for no reason and lose that support. Rallying against MR LTP, who have no decision making authority, offers a potential explanation for why the PTB treated SPG LTPs so poorly because we see the SPG LTP being so needlessly nasty.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 9:50 am
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Originally Posted by CJKatl View Post
We know you couldn't have done that because SPG members were too busy staying in Four Points and Alofts where they would get two additional rooms, leave them empty, charge them to their employer and get three credits for one night. Wham! In a paltry 17 stays you have a Plat. And why charge TP and toothpaste to the cc when even without a charge you were almost instantly Plat just by getting the Amex?

Do I believe that is how most people, or even more than a very small number of people, got their status? Of course not, but that's how preposterous it sounds when MR LTP are wrongly demeaned. We are not your enemy. Most of us had no or very few cc nights and could qualify with well over 750 nights even if those are backed out. Rollover nights only existed for a few years. We are not your enemy. If you read through the boards most of us think that an SPG Plat with over 750 nights should qualify for LTPP in the new program. SPG members throwing us under the bus with this thread and the post above makes that support difficult. You can object to the unfairness of how SPG LTP >750 are being treated with our support or you can fight us for no reason and lose that support. Rallying against MR LTP, who have no decision making authority, offers a potential explanation for why the PTB treated SPG LTPs so poorly because we see the SPG LTP being so needlessly nasty.
It is not my intention to be nasty but rather to reflect on some of the silly arguments, on both sides of this discussion.
The fault is not with posters so much as Marriott. They should never have got to this point ....clearly alienating a significant group of loyal, high-spending members ( staying at THEIR hotels) for no good reason.
Either an oversight ( easily fixed) or staggering inepititude. Time will tell.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 10:19 am
  #23  
 
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So to bite the trolling.. because I can, and apologies for the long post but I thought I'd try and contribute to a single point on the forum related to the change, rather than just providing general comments on many.

I am a Marriott Lifetime Platinum. I currently sit around 1300 nights to date over about ten years of travel. I have also legitimately earned Marriott Platinum Premier historically when it was an unpublished benefit (believed to be top 2% of Marriott spenders worldwide), in the new world it would have likely been Ambassador status as I was averaging over 150 nights/year. Currently I probably don't currently stay quite as much to earn the new Platinum Premier status (seniority has led to more focused travel rather than living in a hotel), and so I probably only make 40-50 nights a year now. However I'd have been very disappointed to not still be top tier in a combined programme, as I got used to that previously, and unpublished/levels that did exist were often confused - associate recognition didn't do me much good (I think as the previous Plat Premier I was treated slightly worse as many people had no idea what the level was, excluding the hotel I visited in Georgia, the country, where the staff were delighted to let me know I was the first PP to visit their hotel). In return for this treatment I do get a far number of more junior staff hooked to the hotel programmes, and spend many nights at a Marriott on personal travel :P

Now I'm not saying that a loyal SPG customer doesn't deserve some route to this level, I am just saying that there is a reason that Marriott did the match the way they did... it keeps members like me loyal and as brand ambassadors, in a way that a 'downgrade' to Platinum wouldn't. As a note, to hit lifetime Marriott Platinum I did it on the old system before the tiers were revised (1000 nights, I forget how many million points, 2, 3?), which differs significantly from the equivalent SPG level, in manycases an SPG Platinum with a stay based qualification would have struggled to hit Lifetime Marriott Gold due to the different treatment of stays vs nights (to be clear, I don't mind this, I'm ex-Hilton Diamond as well, I used to use this to my benefit, at the time of doing 150 nights at Marriott I'd make sure I did my 28 Hilton stays, but it is a different level of commitment from 75 nights a year). Based on my age and love of travel the chances are that I will stay at a Marriott brand hotels perhaps another 2000 nights before retirement.. if they'd downgraded me to a lower level perhaps that could have taken a 20-30% hit, not an insignificant amount of cash into their franchise.

However, having said all this (which I wanted to do to counter a more SPG focused view), I do think it is fair of Marriott to recognise that if you did 1000+ real nights at SPG (removing the multi room stays) there should be a special route to Marriott LTPP... the interesting thing is that I think there is a fair chance that this will happen (published or not), as over the years Marriott has been fairly consistent and good at listening to sites like FlyerTalk, and adjusting to genuine feedback, or individual requests. Compared to many other potential devaluations I've lived through Marriott has been fairly positive overall, especially through the SPG merger. I really dreaded the worst from this announcement, but feel that overall it is very positive and fair (as long as all the hotels don't end up category 9 peak rates, which I consider fairly unlikely), and yes, partially that is as I hit Platinum Premier again, after a four year gap :P.

So having said this, I'd add a few observations to the OP's mention of my 'new' benefits:
  • Suites may not have been a published Platinum Marriott benefit but I used to have them occur fairly frequently, at least outside of the US. Formalising this is of course a 'good thing', but under the old programme my 'best' ever suite upgrade was at the Marriott Buenos Ares where I got an upgrade to the presidential suite, certainly not published as a benefit (and likely driven by overbooking), but certainly welcome
  • I did very rarely use the Marriott 48 hour guarantee, and the equivalent 'get you any room when it isn't a blackout' perk, but it did occasionally come in handy - the positive is that it was automatically coded into the system and so could be used online, and unlike hilton the prices were actually the BAR. Best use ever, getting the same hotel as the UK team at the commonwealth games in Glasgow as I booked it perhaps 11 months in advance and they hadn't added a blackout date. The hotel honoured it. Otherwise, those last minute business trips for a busy town, when I got the Marriott and my colleagues ended up in the no-name 3* hotel (along with the person that Marriott probably kicked out of the hotel to give me a room) - this was appreciated and a useful benefit.
  • However, I always felt 'shafted' at resorts due to the lack of perks, though I remember the Gold Coast Marriott resort in Australia giving me free breakfast even though they didn't need to, those rare rays of light.
Now you know what I appreciate the most about the merger - the St Regis.... I never really stay at the Ritz Carlton due to the lack of breakfast (silly when the room rate was measured in hundreds of dollars and breakfast would have been a portion of that, but you know, principle...). The St Regis introduced me to incredibly high quality hotels, and I'm won over by the breakfast.... such a simple addition, and my one regret in the new combined programme is the brands not offering me a breakfast, LTPP or otherwise, thanks SPG .

As such, I'd say, yes call me a Marriott defender or apologist, but honestly five days ago pre-announcement who would have thought the general perception of most FFP watchers would have been "I am a winner through this change". There is a reason that the Marriott forum is full of people desperately considering how to get X hundred thousand more points in four months as they recognise that the 'legacy' Marriott has been well treated, but honestly I think that SPG Platinums have done fairly well overall as second best tier at 6000 hotels is likely more helpful for most travellers than the best tier at 1400.
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Last edited by littlevoices; Apr 19, 18 at 10:25 am
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Old Apr 19, 18, 10:26 am
  #24  
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Originally Posted by sfosyd View Post


Marriott bought SPG due to the loyal members, more sophisticated members and awards program. Shafting SPG member is the stupidest thing they could do. See here:

https://nyti.ms/1Yg3mvT
This is a link from a NYT article that was written and published in 2015, before there were any details about the merger.

I think all the people who are complaining here should remember that lifetime Plat with Starwood meant LIFETIME PLAT-MINUS, aka lifetime Plat25. The status wasn't even equivalent to SPG Plat50 benefits. Yes, many SPG LTPs were also Plat50/75/Amb, but SPG never offered those status levels on a lifetime basis. Marriott LTP really was Lifetime Plat(75), although again many of us with lifetime Plat from Marriott also earned it through years as PP, which required much more than 100 nights as it was an unpublished status with secret revenue requirements as well as the commonly reported need to have hit 100 nights for several years in a row before receiving a PP invitation.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 10:43 am
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by littlevoices View Post
So to bite the trolling.. because I can, and apologies for the long post but I thought I'd try and contribute to a single point on the forum related to the change, rather than just providing general comments on many.

I am a Marriott Lifetime Platinum. I currently sit around 1300 nights to date over about ten years of travel. I have also legitimately earned Marriott Platinum Premier historically when it was an unpublished benefit (believed to be top 2% of Marriott spenders worldwide), in the new world it would have likely been Ambassador status as I was averaging over 150 nights/year. Currently I probably don't currently stay quite as much to earn the new Platinum Premier status (seniority has led to more focused travel rather than living in a hotel), and so I probably only make 40-50 nights a year now. However I'd have been very disappointed to not still be top tier in a combined programme, as I got used to that previously, and unpublished/levels that did exist were often confused - associate recognition didn't do me much good (I think as the previous Plat Premier I was treated slightly worse as many people had no idea what the level was, excluding the hotel I visited in Georgia, the country, where the staff were delighted to let me know I was the first PP to visit their hotel). In return for this treatment I do get a far number of more junior staff hooked to the hotel programmes, and spend many nights at a Marriott on personal travel :P
You'll fit right in. I've had properties have no idea what an Ambassador even is

Now I'm not saying that a loyal SPG customer doesn't deserve some route to this level, I am just saying that there is a reason that Marriott did the match the way they did... it keeps members like me loyal and as brand ambassadors, in a way that a 'downgrade' to Platinum wouldn't. As a note, to hit lifetime Marriott Platinum I did it on the old system before the tiers were revised (1000 nights, I forget how many million points, 2, 3?), which differs significantly from the equivalent SPG level, in manycases an SPG Platinum with a stay based qualification would have struggled to hit Lifetime Marriott Gold due to the different treatment of stays vs nights (to be clear, I don't mind this, I'm ex-Hilton Diamond as well, I used to use this to my benefit, at the time of doing 150 nights at Marriott I'd make sure I did my 28 Hilton stays, but it is a different level of commitment from 75 nights a year). Based on my age and love of travel the chances are that I will stay at a Marriott brand hotels perhaps another 2000 nights before retirement.. if they'd downgraded me to a lower level perhaps that could have taken a 20-30% hit, not an insignificant amount of cash into their franchise.
Why is your "brand ambassadorship" any more important than that of someone who has committed so many nights to SPG?

However, having said all this (which I wanted to do to counter a more SPG focused view), I do think it is fair of Marriott to recognise that if you did 1000+ real nights at SPG (removing the multi room stays) there should be a special route to Marriott LTPP... the interesting thing is that I think there is a fair chance that this will happen (published or not), as over the years Marriott has been fairly consistent and good at listening to sites like FlyerTalk, and adjusting to genuine feedback, or individual requests. Compared to many other potential devaluations I've lived through Marriott has been fairly positive overall, especially through the SPG merger. I really dreaded the worst from this announcement, but feel that overall it is very positive and fair (as long as all the hotels don't end up category 9 peak rates, which I consider fairly unlikely), and yes, partially that is as I hit Platinum Premier again, after a four year gap :P.
Are we likewise removing rollover nights, nights from meeting spend, and credit card nights from the calculation?

So having said this, I'd add a few observations to the OP's mention of my 'new' benefits:
  • Suites may not have been a published Platinum Marriott benefit but I used to have them occur fairly frequently, at least outside of the US. Formalising this is of course a 'good thing', but under the old programme my 'best' ever suite upgrade was at the Marriott Buenos Ares where I got an upgrade to the presidential suite, certainly not published as a benefit (and likely driven by overbooking), but certainly welcome
Properties have always had the option to upgrade above and beyond the standard pool of suites. Though admittedly suite upgrades in general, while guaranteed, has always been one of the areas where service delivery has been inconsistent across the portfolio.
  • I did very rarely use the Marriott 48 hour guarantee, and the equivalent 'get you any room when it isn't a blackout' perk, but it did occasionally come in handy - the positive is that it was automatically coded into the system and so could be used online, and unlike hilton the prices were actually the BAR. Best use ever, getting the same hotel as the UK team at the commonwealth games in Glasgow as I booked it perhaps 11 months in advance and they hadn't added a blackout date. The hotel honoured it. Otherwise, those last minute business trips for a busy town, when I got the Marriott and my colleagues ended up in the no-name 3* hotel (along with the person that Marriott probably kicked out of the hotel to give me a room) - this was appreciated and a useful benefit.
  • However, I always felt 'shafted' at resorts due to the lack of perks, though I remember the Gold Coast Marriott resort in Australia giving me free breakfast even though they didn't need to, those rare rays of light.
Now you know what I appreciate the most about the merger - the St Regis.... I never really stay at the Ritz Carlton due to the lack of breakfast (silly when the room rate was measured in hundreds of dollars and breakfast would have been a portion of that, but you know, principle...). The St Regis introduced me to incredibly high quality hotels, and I'm won over by the breakfast.... such a simple addition, and my one regret in the new combined programme is the brands not offering me a breakfast, LTPP or otherwise, thanks SPG .

As such, I'd say, yes call me a Marriott defender or apologist, but honestly five days ago pre-announcement who would have thought the general perception of most FFP watchers would have been "I am a winner through this change". There is a reason that the Marriott forum is full of people desperately considering how to get X hundred thousand more points in four months as they recognise that the 'legacy' Marriott has been well treated, but honestly I think that SPG Platinums have done fairly well overall as second best tier at 6000 hotels is likely more helpful for most travellers than the best tier at 1400.
Fair points, all. Each has its benefits and drawbacks, as have been detailed extensively in these forums and others. I think legacy SPG customers (those whose passion Arne Sorensen admitted surprised him) have demonstrated a propensity to focus stays at these properties by going out of their way to do so in many instances.

Last edited by CLEguy; Apr 19, 18 at 10:48 am
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Old Apr 19, 18, 11:10 am
  #26  
 
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So I'm a little late to the game on this info... Did not realize this distinction between SPG and MR LTP transferring inequitably into the new combined program. I assumed LTP = LPT, which was bad enough, but now realizing MR LTP = LTPP while ANY SPG LTP = LTP I have to say it is difficult to stay calm. As an SPG LTP with 836 nights and 12yrs Plat, and wanting to give Marriott the benefit of doubt, I can only hope this inequity is simply a GIANT FREAKIN OVERSIGHT.

Note that during the same 12yr period I maintained Hyatt Diamond status in addition to SPG Plat, yet had only 2 Marriott stays, i.e. I have a great deal of control over hotel choices even on biz travel. With LTP-Minus (I agree with MSPeconomist) under the new program locked in, and no apparent path to LTPP, I can shutdown Marriott stays as I have in the past with no impact on LPT-Minus status. I am free to focus my stays elsewhere with no downside related to the new Marriott program.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 11:17 am
  #27  
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Before everyone gets overly upset, please look at the rules for Plat versus PP in the new program. If you don't earn the 5 SNA choice (based on actual nights credit during the year), there's very little difference except for the 75% versus 50% points bonus.

In fact, based on my experience as a Marriott multiyear PP, I would expect most hotels to continue to think that PP is *below* Plat and act accordingly.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 11:49 am
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by Okijames View Post
So I'm a little late to the game on this info... Did not realize this distinction between SPG and MR LTP transferring inequitably into the new combined program. I assumed LTP = LPT, which was bad enough, but now realizing MR LTP = LTPP while ANY SPG LTP = LTP I have to say it is difficult to stay calm. As an SPG LTP with 836 nights and 12yrs Plat, and wanting to give Marriott the benefit of doubt, I can only hope this inequity is simply a GIANT FREAKIN OVERSIGHT.

Note that during the same 12yr period I maintained Hyatt Diamond status in addition to SPG Plat, yet had only 2 Marriott stays, i.e. I have a great deal of control over hotel choices even on biz travel. With LTP-Minus (I agree with MSPeconomist) under the new program locked in, and no apparent path to LTPP, I can shutdown Marriott stays as I have in the past with no impact on LPT-Minus status. I am free to focus my stays elsewhere with no downside related to the new Marriott program.
Agree completely and this mimics my circumstances very closely, although I have a few more nights and years. I also kept Hyatt Diamond for 12 or 15 years and could still go back to it to finish off lifetime status there ( but the main problem there is footprint).
I thought Marriott would suit my travel patterns and that going forward I would stay maybe 70/30 SPG/MAR. But I have the option to stick with Plat-Lite ( as MPS-ECONOMIST calls it) , forgo the SNAs and higher earning and do those stays elsewhere, HH, IHG, even some Radissons and independent hotels. We are not locked-in here.
The big revelation for me in this discussion has been the extent to which many of the total night count is not real. For anyone in Australia, most of Asia, much of Europe, we don't have these CCs, MAR or SPG, and have paid scant attention in the past. My ( close to 1000) nights are REAL, just as my extreme irritation over the second class status is REAL. It defies belief that so-called experts could design and implement a system with this fundamental built-in bias ( however trivial the earning differential...it's beside the point).
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Old Apr 19, 18, 11:50 am
  #29  
 
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I want to be clear that I have absolutely zero resentment or ill feelings towards MR LTP members. I believe they were rightly given LTPP and I believe that the mapping absolutely correctly and, more importantly, fairly mapped their MR LTP status to LTPP.

I want to be equally clear that I do believe Marriott did not properly map SPG LTP 750+ night members' status to LTPP as Marriott improperly and inaccurately communicated to both SPG and MR members since the merger that nights spent at Starwood or Marriott properties would be treated equally, that points could be easily and instantly transferred between programs at a pre-designated exchange rate and that LT statuses would be recognized in any new combined program. I heard that message as did every interested SPG and MR member many of whom asked about LT status almost immediately following the merger.

At no time since the merger did Marriott communicate that 750+ MR nights would not be equal to 750+ SPG nights. They also communicated an 3:1 exchange rate for MR vs SPG points. I believe that is the reason most SPG LTP 750+ night members are feeling the way we do.

As for those who say this is the product of an MR takeover of SPG and we should simply suck it up since SPG lost, I would actually like to hear that message clearly from MR if indeed that is their intent -- to create winners and losers. Because that is precisely how we are being made to feel by this LTPP decision while MR broadly communicates otherwise: that we are all equal; that points are being converted fairly (which they have); and status is being mapped in as fair a way as possible.

I have to admit that I had been extremely impressed with the way Marriott handled the merger up until I attended Monday's launch event in NYC. I actually felt that they really wanted SPG members to feel welcomed and not to make anyone feel like this merger created a new class of winners vs losers. I was impressed with how Marriott properties handled SPG Platinum members. One even made a point of saying to me that they hoped that I felt "at home" after I told him that this was my first Marriott stay since the merger.

I do believe that by grandfathering one group and not the other, they have undermined the positive messaging they have communicated to SPG members since the start of the merger. The question is whether it matters to them. Ultimately, we are likely only talking about a relatively small subset of SPG LTP members who have both the 750+ nights and the equivalent of 2MM MR points. Perhaps that group is so small that risking their loyalty and business doesn't have an impact. If that is the case, I believe it would be unfortunate but life for most of us will go on and we will make our travel choices with a clear perspective on where our business is most valued. Again -- I actually don't believe MR intended this since it is just so far off where they had been up until Monday on how SPG members were being treated. Hopefully they realize that they simply missed this segment of the SPG LTP population and address these concerns clearly.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 11:53 am
  #30  
 
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
Before everyone gets overly upset, please look at the rules for Plat versus PP in the new program. If you don't earn the 5 SNA choice (based on actual nights credit during the year), there's very little difference except for the 75% versus 50% points bonus.

In fact, based on my experience as a Marriott multiyear PP, I would expect most hotels to continue to think that PP is *below* Plat and act accordingly.
I covered those differences here. I would continue to argue that the 16.7% differential in earnings alone is material. Since writing that post I have also discovered that matching to United Silver is a benefit granted to Platinum Premier members alone. I definitely enjoy this benefit, but I understand YMMV.
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