737 MAX
#121
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 178
Boeing knew the plane's physical design was fundamentally flawed, which is why they went out of their way to hide the details and "patch" it with software they didn't tell anyone about. As one of Boeing's own employees said in an email that only came out in investigations: "This airplane is designed by clowns who in turn are supervised by monkeys."
#122
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 438
We don't need to have this argument yet again here. Your username is 737MAX8, so it's clear how you feel. The simple fact is that this plane was the result of a fundamentally flawed, rushed design with corners cut and safety given lower priority. Just think of how many design decisions would've been made differently if they actually cared about making the best, safest, most reliable plane possible instead of trying to make a plane to use less fuel with the fastest turnaround time possible. The 737 MAX would be something else entirely. So they can try to slap a bunch of fixes over it, but I would rather fly on a plane that wasn't designed to be unbalanced and doesn't have an innate tendency to stall.
Boeing knew the plane's physical design was fundamentally flawed, which is why they went out of their way to hide the details and "patch" it with software they didn't tell anyone about. As one of Boeing's own employees said in an email that only came out in investigations: "This airplane is designed by clowns who in turn are supervised by monkeys."
Boeing knew the plane's physical design was fundamentally flawed, which is why they went out of their way to hide the details and "patch" it with software they didn't tell anyone about. As one of Boeing's own employees said in an email that only came out in investigations: "This airplane is designed by clowns who in turn are supervised by monkeys."
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...-jet-now-safe/
#123
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Programs: AC SE100K, F9 100k, NK Gold, UA *S, Hyatt Glob, Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 5,193
If FAA is so conservative, then where is the 3rd physical AoA sensor that Europe was going to require? Too little, too late!
Article on airliners seems to say that Europe will require it to be phased in and retrofitted over time (which could be years or a decade).
#124
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: WAS
Programs: enjoyed being warm spit for a few years on CO/UA but now nothing :(
Posts: 2,507
#125
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
Looks like a few different interested parties think the fixes don't go far enough.
FAA’s Own Engineers Say Proposed Fixes to Max Aren’t Enough
FAA’s Own Engineers Say Proposed Fixes to Max Aren’t Enough
The NATCA comments include five separate recommendations. They range from relatively minor changes in emergency procedures to a call for what appear to be more extensive revisions to the plane’s cockpit alerting system.
Despite proposed changes to the plane, it would still be subject to erroneous warnings from a single sensor, the union said. “This design does not comply” with FAA regulations and could lead to pilot confusion, it said.
Despite proposed changes to the plane, it would still be subject to erroneous warnings from a single sensor, the union said. “This design does not comply” with FAA regulations and could lead to pilot confusion, it said.
#126
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Programs: Sometimes known as [ARG:6 UNDEFINED]
Posts: 26,689
I try to avoid any emotional responses. It's just a fact over 18 months has been spent working on this issue. This is a good article:
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...-jet-now-safe/
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...-jet-now-safe/
#127
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 438
I am not debating anything about the original max. The issues are well documented. My point was there has been a ton of time and work on max 2.0, which is now different from max 1.0 with all of the applied changes. The MCAS software will obviously not act like 1.0
#128
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Programs: Sometimes known as [ARG:6 UNDEFINED]
Posts: 26,689
I'm in the second group. I'll let other passengers serve as test subjects for a year or so before I'll get on a MAX.
#130
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,509
Very few will give "737-8" a second thought.
#132
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 438
Cool. But redesigns on an airplane carrying 150-200 people at a time demand orders of magnitude different scrutiny than, say, redesigns on a coffee maker that spits coffee out the sides once in a while. This has always been a distinction in arguments among FTers, IMO. There is a faction that essentially says "it's software, we'll fix it, everything peachy," and a faction that essentially says "hundreds of people are dead, this has to be absolutely ironclad before I'll get on that machine."
I'm in the second group. I'll let other passengers serve as test subjects for a year or so before I'll get on a MAX.
I'm in the second group. I'll let other passengers serve as test subjects for a year or so before I'll get on a MAX.
#133
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,509
Like there's ever unanimity. ALPA on Monday said the loss-of-control checklist needs work to “more rapidly isolate the problem." Female pilots must be physically able to move the trim wheel in extremis. Boeing test pilots could not meet the performance standard (reaction time) required for MCAS to be safe as certified. What NTSB praised as "positive progress" is not conclusive.
#134
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Programs: Sometimes known as [ARG:6 UNDEFINED]
Posts: 26,689
Conversely, I didn't think an airplane manufacturer would push through a plane that killed 350 people in two separate accidents of the exact same type before realizing they needed to go through 18+ months of extreme scrutiny. <shrugs>
Last edited by DenverBrian; Sep 27, 2020 at 8:37 am
#135
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
From the link I posted earlier:
The Air Line Pilots Association, which represents more than 60,000 flight crew members in North America, proposed several changes to the FAA plan, such as giving pilots the ability to disable the loud thumping warning that occurs when a plane is about to enter an aerodynamic stall.