Passenger removed from flight after a joke
May 15, 2019, 5:24 am
#18
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Sedona, AZ, USA
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DOT should log pssenger ejections
I would like to see a requirement that all passenger ejections be reported in detail to the Department of Transportation. The report would include signed statements from all crew and pax involved in the incident, with attached copies of any stills or video captured by onlookers. DOT would have the authority to fine airlines and charge individual crew for ejections it deemed to be in bad faith. After all, at-fault passengers in incidents like this are already exposed to the same legal repercussions.
The cost of filing such reports, the bureaucracy involved, and the potential legal exposure, would drastically cut down on the "junk" ejections we keep hearing about, the ones that take place merely because some FA was having a bad day.
The cost of filing such reports, the bureaucracy involved, and the potential legal exposure, would drastically cut down on the "junk" ejections we keep hearing about, the ones that take place merely because some FA was having a bad day.
Last edited by alangore; May 15, 2019 at 5:31 am
May 15, 2019, 6:47 am
#19
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I would like to see a requirement that all passenger ejections be reported in detail to the Department of Transportation. The report would include signed statements from all crew and pax involved in the incident, with attached copies of any stills or video captured by onlookers. DOT would have the authority to fine airlines and charge individual crew for ejections it deemed to be in bad faith. After all, at-fault passengers in incidents like this are already exposed to the same legal repercussions.
The cost of filing such reports, the bureaucracy involved, and the potential legal exposure, would drastically cut down on the "junk" ejections we keep hearing about, the ones that take place merely because some FA was having a bad day.
The cost of filing such reports, the bureaucracy involved, and the potential legal exposure, would drastically cut down on the "junk" ejections we keep hearing about, the ones that take place merely because some FA was having a bad day.
May 15, 2019, 7:01 am
#20
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I would like to see a requirement that all passenger ejections be reported in detail to the Department of Transportation. The report would include signed statements from all crew and pax involved in the incident, with attached copies of any stills or video captured by onlookers. DOT would have the authority to fine airlines and charge individual crew for ejections it deemed to be in bad faith. After all, at-fault passengers in incidents like this are already exposed to the same legal repercussions.
The cost of filing such reports, the bureaucracy involved, and the potential legal exposure, would drastically cut down on the "junk" ejections we keep hearing about, the ones that take place merely because some FA was having a bad day.
The cost of filing such reports, the bureaucracy involved, and the potential legal exposure, would drastically cut down on the "junk" ejections we keep hearing about, the ones that take place merely because some FA was having a bad day.
One of the more intelligent and logical comments on this stuff I have seen.
This would solve MANY of the problems we hear about.
May 15, 2019, 7:40 am
#21
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Seems like after passenger outrage, the FA should've been the one removed in handcuffs to a roar of cheers for wasting the police officer's time on a disorderly conduct charge. This would've been the perfect FA to make an example out of. The FA clearly started something out of nothing and caused a public disturbance. Who wants to fly on a plane with someone like this FA?
Someday, our lawmakers will step in and strip FA's of all of their rights - FA's constantly prove why they shouldn't have one ounce of authority over any situation because many act like their frontal cortex hasn't been fully developed yet. If you act in the same way the customer does, you deserve to be removed from a flight yourself.
Hopefully she already got the boot.
Someday, our lawmakers will step in and strip FA's of all of their rights - FA's constantly prove why they shouldn't have one ounce of authority over any situation because many act like their frontal cortex hasn't been fully developed yet. If you act in the same way the customer does, you deserve to be removed from a flight yourself.
Hopefully she already got the boot.
Southwest's canned response was horribly tone-deaf and lame as well.
May 15, 2019, 7:59 am
#22
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 72
Here's what I can tell you based upon my own experience being asked to deplane.
FA's only need to declare to the captain that they "feel unsafe" with a particular passenger on board.
In my case, I was sitting in FC and when a Delta ground crew member came on board and asked me to deplane with my carry-on to have a discussion, I knew there was no point in arguing. The FA was sequestered in the cockpit and the pilot stood at the open door to the cockpit. I asked him: "Was this your decision?" His answer was that he supported his crew. It was clear that the details of whatever caused the FA to reach her decision did NOT matter.
In the big picture, the airline is most concerned about getting from point A to point B ON TIME and without incident. Therefore there isn't room for a mock trial or ruling on who is right. It didn't matter that the Diamond Medallion stranger next to me loudly told the FA: "Ma'am, you haven't conducted yourself appropriately since we boarded this flight!" The early departure turned into a 2 minutes late departure, which the GA later pointed out.
There was a Delta Red Coat there to greet me and listen to my side of the story. He pointed out that it would be documented and that there are two sides to the story. He asked the GA to re-book me on the next flight and to "buy me lunch." Several hours later, the Delta agent that had come on board to ask me to deplane was the GA working my re-booked flight. He actually apologized to me and explained that he was just doing as he was asked. I told him I completely understood and had no hard feelings towards him.
The whole experience is humbling and a reminder of just how powerless we are in these circumstances. Do I feel the FA was abusive in her power? YES. Just as it sounds like this Southwest FA was as well. And so was the FA years ago who had a mother with her crying infant removed, when on the delayed flight, the mother snapped at the FA who ordered mom to quiet her crying infant.
My incident occurred early December 2017 and I just avoided Delta for over a year. It still bothers me, but there seems to be little that can be done.
When I read this thread about the Southwest incident, my immediate thought was: EVERYONE should have stood up ... and what.... "revolted"? At most, the flight would have been canceled, so no one wins. Furthermore, I bet if a pax or several pax were pointed out later as leading this, they'd simply be banned for life from Southwest.
As for me and the particulars of my incident, I haven't shared them. For now, I'm not ready. But what I will tell you is that I've watched a number of humorous videos of unruly passengers refusing to deplane, that all end the same. So I know better. I was dressed business casual, sitting in FC on a paid premium fare, was not intoxicated, did not use any inappropriate language nor did I make any threatening remarks or raise my voice. Yet it still happened.
"Play nice" with the flight attendants: their bad day can turn into your worst nightmare.
FA's only need to declare to the captain that they "feel unsafe" with a particular passenger on board.
In my case, I was sitting in FC and when a Delta ground crew member came on board and asked me to deplane with my carry-on to have a discussion, I knew there was no point in arguing. The FA was sequestered in the cockpit and the pilot stood at the open door to the cockpit. I asked him: "Was this your decision?" His answer was that he supported his crew. It was clear that the details of whatever caused the FA to reach her decision did NOT matter.
In the big picture, the airline is most concerned about getting from point A to point B ON TIME and without incident. Therefore there isn't room for a mock trial or ruling on who is right. It didn't matter that the Diamond Medallion stranger next to me loudly told the FA: "Ma'am, you haven't conducted yourself appropriately since we boarded this flight!" The early departure turned into a 2 minutes late departure, which the GA later pointed out.
There was a Delta Red Coat there to greet me and listen to my side of the story. He pointed out that it would be documented and that there are two sides to the story. He asked the GA to re-book me on the next flight and to "buy me lunch." Several hours later, the Delta agent that had come on board to ask me to deplane was the GA working my re-booked flight. He actually apologized to me and explained that he was just doing as he was asked. I told him I completely understood and had no hard feelings towards him.
The whole experience is humbling and a reminder of just how powerless we are in these circumstances. Do I feel the FA was abusive in her power? YES. Just as it sounds like this Southwest FA was as well. And so was the FA years ago who had a mother with her crying infant removed, when on the delayed flight, the mother snapped at the FA who ordered mom to quiet her crying infant.
My incident occurred early December 2017 and I just avoided Delta for over a year. It still bothers me, but there seems to be little that can be done.
When I read this thread about the Southwest incident, my immediate thought was: EVERYONE should have stood up ... and what.... "revolted"? At most, the flight would have been canceled, so no one wins. Furthermore, I bet if a pax or several pax were pointed out later as leading this, they'd simply be banned for life from Southwest.
As for me and the particulars of my incident, I haven't shared them. For now, I'm not ready. But what I will tell you is that I've watched a number of humorous videos of unruly passengers refusing to deplane, that all end the same. So I know better. I was dressed business casual, sitting in FC on a paid premium fare, was not intoxicated, did not use any inappropriate language nor did I make any threatening remarks or raise my voice. Yet it still happened.
"Play nice" with the flight attendants: their bad day can turn into your worst nightmare.
May 15, 2019, 8:20 am
#24
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: DTW
Programs: Alaska, Delta, Southwest
Posts: 1,663
...
As for me and the particulars of my incident, I haven't shared them. For now, I'm not ready. But what I will tell you is that I've watched a number of humorous videos of unruly passengers refusing to deplane, that all end the same. So I know better. I was dressed business casual, sitting in FC on a paid premium fare, was not intoxicated, did not use any inappropriate language nor did I make any threatening remarks or raise my voice. Yet it still happened.
"Play nice" with the flight attendants: their bad day can turn into your worst nightmare.
As for me and the particulars of my incident, I haven't shared them. For now, I'm not ready. But what I will tell you is that I've watched a number of humorous videos of unruly passengers refusing to deplane, that all end the same. So I know better. I was dressed business casual, sitting in FC on a paid premium fare, was not intoxicated, did not use any inappropriate language nor did I make any threatening remarks or raise my voice. Yet it still happened.
"Play nice" with the flight attendants: their bad day can turn into your worst nightmare.
People get frustrated when they’re completely powerless, and they often don’t have the choice to just switch to a competitor because in many markets, there aren’t any. I’m generally not one for more regulation, but if the airlines won’t voluntarily address this, then the law needs to.
May 15, 2019, 8:27 am
#25
Join Date: Jul 2009
Programs: none
Posts: 1,668
From what has been reported so far on FT, how can anyone make an intelligent conclusion about what actually happened when you weren't even there? Let's see the video, let's read witness statements, let's hear from the pilot, from the FA. Lets do a full-scale investigation and actually get to the bottom of this outrage. Of course, you're never gonna get that.
If the incident happened exactly like it's alleged, that is, the passenger made an innocent joke, then the FA Pilot (who has the final decision) made an error. BUT, if all the facts aren't in yet, and the passenger made an inappropriate remark, then the passenger is the jerk for doing that and should be offloaded.
If you don't know what happened, don't try to pretend you're the aviation expert on all matters. Is it even POSSIBLE that we don't have all the facts?
I'm throwing the BS flag on this to everyone who jumped to conclusions with the whole story.. It's embarrassing to even read this.
Someone please tell me the other side of the story
If the incident happened exactly like it's alleged, that is, the passenger made an innocent joke, then the FA Pilot (who has the final decision) made an error. BUT, if all the facts aren't in yet, and the passenger made an inappropriate remark, then the passenger is the jerk for doing that and should be offloaded.
If you don't know what happened, don't try to pretend you're the aviation expert on all matters. Is it even POSSIBLE that we don't have all the facts?
I'm throwing the BS flag on this to everyone who jumped to conclusions with the whole story.. It's embarrassing to even read this.
Someone please tell me the other side of the story
May 15, 2019, 8:32 am
#26
Join Date: Oct 2001
Programs: LTP, PP
Posts: 8,697
From what has been reported so far on FT, how can anyone make an intelligent conclusion about what actually happened when you weren't even there? Let's see the video, let's read witness statements, let's hear from the pilot, from the FA. Lets do a full-scale investigation and actually get to the bottom of this outrage. Of course, you're never gonna get that.
If the incident happened exactly like it's alleged, that is, the passenger made an innocent joke, then the FA Pilot (who has the final decision) made an error. BUT, if all the facts aren't in yet, and the passenger made an inappropriate remark, then the passenger is the jerk for doing that and should be offloaded.
If you don't know what happened, don't try to pretend you're the aviation expert on all matters. Is it even POSSIBLE that we don't have all the facts?
I'm throwing the BS flag on this to everyone who jumped to conclusions with the whole story.. It's embarrassing to even read this.
Someone please tell me the other side of the story
If the incident happened exactly like it's alleged, that is, the passenger made an innocent joke, then the FA Pilot (who has the final decision) made an error. BUT, if all the facts aren't in yet, and the passenger made an inappropriate remark, then the passenger is the jerk for doing that and should be offloaded.
If you don't know what happened, don't try to pretend you're the aviation expert on all matters. Is it even POSSIBLE that we don't have all the facts?
I'm throwing the BS flag on this to everyone who jumped to conclusions with the whole story.. It's embarrassing to even read this.
Someone please tell me the other side of the story
May 15, 2019, 8:53 am
#27
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Many of us cope with inappropriate remarks at work and deal with it. If the FA is such a delicate flower that every offender must be removed from her sight immediately, she's too fragile to work as a FA and be responsible for the lives of strangers in an emergency.
Unless a passenger either threatens the aircraft or threatens to physically harm another individual during the flight, such as declaring an intent to rape one's seatmate, it's hard to imagine a remark that would justify removing someone from a flight.
I don't even interpret the vodka remark as a joke. Some airlines do serve (free) alcohol throughout coach during bad delays and vodka would be a normal PDB in FC on domestic flights in the USA. What would be wrong with requesting alcohol during an onboard drinks service while stuck at the gate? Does the FA object to the idea that an adult might wish to drink an adult beverage?
Unless a passenger either threatens the aircraft or threatens to physically harm another individual during the flight, such as declaring an intent to rape one's seatmate, it's hard to imagine a remark that would justify removing someone from a flight.
I don't even interpret the vodka remark as a joke. Some airlines do serve (free) alcohol throughout coach during bad delays and vodka would be a normal PDB in FC on domestic flights in the USA. What would be wrong with requesting alcohol during an onboard drinks service while stuck at the gate? Does the FA object to the idea that an adult might wish to drink an adult beverage?
May 15, 2019, 9:04 am
#28
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This was the joke according to the passenger quoted in the article: 'He said something [like] "They should be passing out vodka because we’ve been waiting so long.'
Honestly it sounds like a joke my Dad might make, but could even be a legitimate request depending on the tone as MSPeconomist pointed out. I've certainly been offered alcohol during even some not-so-lengthy delays.
Honestly it sounds like a joke my Dad might make, but could even be a legitimate request depending on the tone as MSPeconomist pointed out. I've certainly been offered alcohol during even some not-so-lengthy delays.
May 15, 2019, 9:11 am
#29
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 72
<div style="text-align:left;"><br /><br />By the sound of it, you followed all of the advice you’re offering and still got booted, suggesting even “playing nice” with the crew doesn’t help. I’m thinking we’re seeing more of these incidents now with passengers revolting because they know they’re going to get booted anyway, so might as well make a scene and get some media coverage.<br /><br />People get frustrated when they’re completely powerless, and they often don’t have the choice to just switch to a competitor because in many markets, there aren’t any. I’m generally not one for more regulation, but if the airlines won’t voluntarily address this, then the law needs to.</div>
Media coverage? This Southwest event did get media play, but what happened? Southwest issues a standard non-committal apology dressed with statistics as to how great a carrier they remain. Perhaps if the media coverage included pictures of the errant FA, publicly shaming the FA. Then what? Think of that viral video of the AA FA who got into it was a mother and her crying twins over a baby stroller. It was heart-breaking to hear mom crying at how she was treated-- and angering to see the FA in question verbally threaten the pax who filmed part of the encounter: what a monster that FA appeared! But whatever happened to him? He could still be flying for AA.
And just imagine boarding an AA flight, recognizing him standing in the FC galley as you board, then turning to him to say: "Weren't you that FA?" I'd bet you'd be booted from the flight just for verbalizing the recognition in those few innocent words.
One solution I thought of initially is that both the pax and crew member should be booted. But even with reservists on had to sub out, it still means a delay, so no airline would be in favor.
The DOT reporting idea also sounds like a good one. But airlines are to DOT as Boeing --it seems-- is to FAA, so don't expect the DOT to add something else to their bureaucracy.
Finally, let me clarify that I feel the vast majority of FA's are true professionals that deserve respect for the important role that play for the airline and its passengers. Many approach their work with a positive attitude and willingness to provide good customer service in addition to their safety responsibilities. Yet they are human, and we know we are not perfect, with bad apples here and there.
