txhyattlvr

You know, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to note that the two crashes are eerily similar:
1. Take off.
2. Gain altitude.
3. Lose altitude, then gain, then lose, then gain.
4. Nosedive and crash.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe these are undisputed facts. Isn't that enough to want to avoid the plane for awhile, until we know for sure?

Ditka

Admiral Ackbar

Didn't want to get into the specifics as I am not a pilot but pilots discussing the incident here (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/...wn-africa.html) point out that the Ethiopian flight was not in a regime (AP mode, climb rate, speed, etc.) where the MCAS system involved in the Lion Air crash would be functioning. So no, those are not undisputed. Nothing is known until the investigation takes its course. I know that is anathema in the age of instant 'information' on social networks but that is how it goes.

As for China grounding the fleet, until the FAA and EASA do it, this is as much about Huawei and trade wars as flight safety.

Don't get me wrong, I have concerns about using the original 737 type certification and modifying it until you get to a 7M8 that is not really the same airplane as decades ago. I also work in machine learning and know that you can't do statistics with two events and extrapolate, no matter how alike they seem until I have all the data.

But the choice is yours of course, not trying to change anyone's mind.

azepine00

But what we do know makes people think the risk of flying that particular model is higher.
Risk assessment is about gauging the unknown. It may still be negligible enough for ntsb/faa not to take any action but it is definitely higher than two days ago.
Some believe you should only buy "certified organic" some you should not fly 737max

Ditka

Peoriaman1

I've been on flights that have done three out of the four. I suppose I'm just playing the odds....

Often1

I will play it safe and book away from the MAX until it is demonstrably safe. The sooner the better. So long as the investigation is thorough.

flying_geek

Same here - I will avoid the aircraft as much as I can till we have more information.

geo979

So wait until 2022 or so?

darrenpb

I do not know the exact reasons why they crashed and am not an expert in aircraft manufacturing, certification, operations and crash investigations, but what I do know is that two new Max8 planes crashed within a relatively short period of time and that rather than wait until the experts complete their investigations and tell me the plane is UNSAFE to fly before I stop flying in them, I am going to wait for the experts to complete their investigations and tell me the planes are SAFE to fly before I resume flying in them again. . . . . . even if it takes until 2022.

nsx

Autotrim is needed. The plane has a different center of gravity than earlier models and would be unsafe without automation. Lion Air showed us that the system needs to be more foolproof, with backup information sources. Relying on pilots to act properly when the system failed was not sufficient. If the Ethiopian pilots failed to act properly after having been informed in detail post-Lion Air, then human pilots need to be bypassed entirely for this function. But you cannot dispense with the function.

darrenpb

It appears Southwest is attempting to accommodate passengers that have concerns about flying on the Max8 planes. I'm not sure whether or not they are charging the fare differences for the rebooked flights.

darrenpb

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of that. Being an engineer, I am aware, as are all engineers, that designs are not always necessarily perfect and am trained to question them at times. This info leads me to the question: Why did the manufacturer design a revision to the older "safe" 737 series, resulting in the Max series, that took the original "safe" design and made it "unsafe" by shifting the center of gravity to what sounds to me as an out of balance location, having to add an additional automated system to mitigate the decrease in safety? Why did the designer not redesign the aircraft to shift the center of gravity back to a "safe" location that did not require an automated system to keep the new "unsafe" Max8 design "safe"? Would that then result in an aircraft that could no longer be considered a "737", thus requiring pilot training for a new aircraft, making it harder to sell? I don't know. I'm just asking questions.

MSPeconomist

sfozrhfco

That is patently untrue. We do know that two planes of the same type crashed shortly after take off. It is up to people to make their own determinations as to whether or not to fly on this plane--WHILE we wait for the details to come out. Many people will take the less risky option of flying on a proven plane type rather than potentially being in the third crash in the middle of investigating what happened with the first two.