Southwest uses the same new Boeing plane in Indonesia crash
Nov 11, 2018, 12:17 pm
#47
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: home = LAX
Posts: 25,933
The 737-800 has been around for ages, long before the MAX.
Nov 11, 2018, 3:26 pm
#48
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: MCI
Programs: CBP Global Entry, WN A-List Preferred, WN Companion Pass
Posts: 2,007
2. Yes
Click the Flight # number hyperlink and a box will open displaying the planned aircraft -type for a given flight. As has been regularly posted many times (for many reasons), a given aircraft can and often will be swapped/substituted over what was originally planned for a variety of reasons, often at the last minute. More likely to sub within the same sub-type (-700 to -700 or -800/-MAX8 to -800/-MAX8) because of the number of seats (143 vs. 175), but YMMV. Remember that it's not just "your flight", but many more segments downstream that day and in the coming days that have the potential to be impacted when metal gets moved around. Our esteemed resident expert can chime-in as his valuable time allows.
As SDSEARCH noted upstream, Southwest has been operating the -800 for quite some time. They have been operating the -MAX8 since September 1st, 2017. I was on the first -MAX8 flight on the first aircraft, as were several of our friends here. As far as I know, we're all doing fine
Last edited by steved5480; Nov 11, 2018 at 3:35 pm
Nov 11, 2018, 4:37 pm
#49
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: ORD, MDW or MKE
Programs: American and Southwest. Hilton and Marriott hotels primarily.
Posts: 6,459
We all need to assess our own tolerances to risk. To me, given the large number of max flights without any issues, this is a VERY minor risk. There were people who said they would no longer sit in window seats near the wing after the death of the person after the fan blades self destructed. I just don't think we evaluate risk very well.
Nov 11, 2018, 8:08 pm
#52
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Nashville -Past DL Plat, FO, WN-CP, various hotel programs
Programs: DL-MM, AA, SW w/companion,HiltonDiamond, Hyatt PLat, IHF Plat, Miles and Points Seeker
Posts: 11,072
Nov 12, 2018, 5:02 pm
#54
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Danville, CA, USA;
Programs: UA 1MM, WN CP, Marriott LT Plat, Hilton Gold, IC Plat
Posts: 15,720
A nonissue here in terms of aircraft type ..... the 737 is incredibly safe and reliable.
For example:
I have an 11 year old jetta that runs like new with 155k miles on it.....i maintain it perfectly and is still extremely safe and reliable.
I have seen a 4 month old "new" car that someone has let the oil in the engine run to sludge and destroyed the engine....(15k miles with no oil change) and needed to be scrapped.
I suspect its the operator...as mentioned, it has been banned from EU and USA airspace.....for good reason.
For example:
I have an 11 year old jetta that runs like new with 155k miles on it.....i maintain it perfectly and is still extremely safe and reliable.
I have seen a 4 month old "new" car that someone has let the oil in the engine run to sludge and destroyed the engine....(15k miles with no oil change) and needed to be scrapped.
I suspect its the operator...as mentioned, it has been banned from EU and USA airspace.....for good reason.
Nov 12, 2018, 9:49 pm
#55
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: MCI
Programs: CBP Global Entry, WN A-List Preferred, WN Companion Pass
Posts: 2,007
If you don't have a WSJ subscription, you can often Google the article title to display the story....
https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...ers-1542082575
https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...ers-1542082575
Nov 12, 2018, 10:10 pm
#56
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,028
Nov 12, 2018, 10:33 pm
#57
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
From the linked articles: (tl;dr: Not good.)
Boeing Co. withheld information about potential hazards associated with a new flight-control feature suspected of playing a role in last month’s fatal Lion Air jet crash, according to safety experts involved in the investigation, as well as midlevel FAA officials and airline pilots.
The automated stall-prevention system on Boeing 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 models — intended to help cockpit crews avoid mistakenly raising a plane’s nose dangerously high — under unusual conditions can push it down unexpectedly and so strongly that flight crews can’t pull it back up. Such a scenario, Boeing told airlines in a worldwide safety bulletin roughly a week after the accident, can result in a steep dive or crash — even if pilots are manually flying the jetliner and don’t expect flight-control computers to kick in.
That warning came as a surprise to many pilots who fly the latest models for U.S carriers. Safety experts involved in and tracking the investigation said that at U.S. carriers, neither airline managers nor pilots had been told such a system had been added to the latest 737 variant — and therefore aviators typically weren’t prepared to cope with the possible risks.
“It’s pretty asinine for them to put a system on an airplane and not tell the pilots who are operating the airplane, especially when it deals with flight controls,” said Capt. Mike Michaelis, chairman of the safety committee for the Allied Pilots Association, which represents about 15,000 American Airlines pilots. “Why weren’t they trained on it?”
The automated stall-prevention system on Boeing 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 models — intended to help cockpit crews avoid mistakenly raising a plane’s nose dangerously high — under unusual conditions can push it down unexpectedly and so strongly that flight crews can’t pull it back up. Such a scenario, Boeing told airlines in a worldwide safety bulletin roughly a week after the accident, can result in a steep dive or crash — even if pilots are manually flying the jetliner and don’t expect flight-control computers to kick in.
That warning came as a surprise to many pilots who fly the latest models for U.S carriers. Safety experts involved in and tracking the investigation said that at U.S. carriers, neither airline managers nor pilots had been told such a system had been added to the latest 737 variant — and therefore aviators typically weren’t prepared to cope with the possible risks.
“It’s pretty asinine for them to put a system on an airplane and not tell the pilots who are operating the airplane, especially when it deals with flight controls,” said Capt. Mike Michaelis, chairman of the safety committee for the Allied Pilots Association, which represents about 15,000 American Airlines pilots. “Why weren’t they trained on it?”
Nov 13, 2018, 1:48 pm
#59
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,028
I hesitate to use the word "victim" here, but it appears that WN, AA, and others (especially JT) were dealt a bad hand by the folks in Seattle.
The "secret" now having been revealed, I suspect every flightcrew is now intimately familiar with the design of the new feature, as well as the proper recovery procedures. Accordingly, I'd have zero issue flying on a 738Max..
Last edited by OPNLguy; Nov 13, 2018 at 2:13 pm
Nov 13, 2018, 3:34 pm
#60
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2001
Programs: DL 1 million, AA 1 mil, HH lapsed Diamond, Marriott Plat
Posts: 28,190
A crash, potentially.
Stalls are one of the most common causes of airplanes crashes. But if pilots did not know exactly what system was in place, or that the data being fed into the system was wrong, their reactions could be fatally muddled, aviation experts said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/w...gtype=Homepage
The pilot union for American Airlines, which also flies the new version of the 737, the Max 8, said Tuesday that the emergency system in question had not been included by Boeing in the standard operating manual. In addition, the flight check list — which contains information for manually overriding the emergency system — was incorrect, the union said.The emergency system is intended to maneuver the plane out of a stall, when its nose is often angled too sharply upward. The system automatically pushes the nose down. If activated incorrectly, it could have sent the plane into its fatal dive, especially if the pilots were not properly trained on how to deal with such a situation.
Stalls are one of the most common causes of airplanes crashes. But if pilots did not know exactly what system was in place, or that the data being fed into the system was wrong, their reactions could be fatally muddled, aviation experts said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/w...gtype=Homepage
The pilot union for American Airlines, which also flies the new version of the 737, the Max 8, said Tuesday that the emergency system in question had not been included by Boeing in the standard operating manual. In addition, the flight check list — which contains information for manually overriding the emergency system — was incorrect, the union said.The emergency system is intended to maneuver the plane out of a stall, when its nose is often angled too sharply upward. The system automatically pushes the nose down. If activated incorrectly, it could have sent the plane into its fatal dive, especially if the pilots were not properly trained on how to deal with such a situation.