Southwest uses the same new Boeing plane in Indonesia crash
Nov 16, 2018, 10:59 am
#76
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
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The protection mode is specific to the MAX. Why would a faulty AOA signal not be a problem with the 737NG but is a problem with the MAX? Techs quoted online blame extremely forward and high mounted engines and their pods generating lift at high angle of attack only. Disconnecting the protection mode seems adventurous. It should be a collaborative call.
Nov 16, 2018, 11:23 am
#77
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
The protection mode is specific to the MAX. Why would a faulty AOA signal not be a problem with the 737NG but is a problem with the MAX? Techs quoted online blame extremely forward and high mounted engines and their pods generating lift at high angle of attack only. Disconnecting the protection mode seems adventurous. It should be a collaborative call.
Nov 16, 2018, 2:01 pm
#80
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Nov 16, 2018, 2:03 pm
#81
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I think it should be obvious, but perhaps is important to point out that stall training is one thing, training to respond to a system you know nothing about because you had no idea it existed, which is controlling the aircraft in response to erroneous sensor input by putting it into a deep dive, is something completely different.
Nov 16, 2018, 2:20 pm
#83
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That's a great reference, thanks for posting. From this info, it's highly questionable that any suggestion that the state of pilot training, arguably lesser at Lion Air by comparison to US carriers, would have made a difference in this situation, should the current assumptions prove to be true.
I see nothing in this article that suggests pilots have the ability to "switch off" M.C.A.S.
If it is possible, would it even be allowed?
If the pilots of Lion Air 610 did in fact confront an emergency with this type of anti-stall system, they would have had to take a rapid series of complex steps to understand what was happening and keep the jetliner flying properly. These steps were not in the manual, and the pilots had not been trained in them.
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If the false warning in turn activated the automatic anti-stall system, the pilots would have had to take a series of rapid and not necessarily intuitive steps to maintain control – a particular challenge since those steps were not in the plane’s operating manual and the pilots had not been trained on how to respond.
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With only fragmentary data available, Mr. Hansman said he suspects that a runaway of the M.C.A.S. system played a central role in the crash. “The system basically overrode the pilot in that situation,” Mr. Hansman said.
If the anti-stall system indeed ran away with the stabilizer control, only a fast sequence of steps by the pilot and first officer could have saved the aircraft, instructions later issued by Boeing show.
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If the false warning in turn activated the automatic anti-stall system, the pilots would have had to take a series of rapid and not necessarily intuitive steps to maintain control – a particular challenge since those steps were not in the plane’s operating manual and the pilots had not been trained on how to respond.
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With only fragmentary data available, Mr. Hansman said he suspects that a runaway of the M.C.A.S. system played a central role in the crash. “The system basically overrode the pilot in that situation,” Mr. Hansman said.
If the anti-stall system indeed ran away with the stabilizer control, only a fast sequence of steps by the pilot and first officer could have saved the aircraft, instructions later issued by Boeing show.
If it is possible, would it even be allowed?
Nov 16, 2018, 3:38 pm
#84
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
I think it should be obvious, but perhaps is important to point out that stall training is one thing, training to respond to a system you know nothing about because you had no idea it existed, which is controlling the aircraft in response to erroneous sensor input by putting it into a deep dive, is something completely different.
Nov 16, 2018, 4:16 pm
#85
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
If possible.
Nothing I've seen says that's so.
And, if possible, if allowed.
Nothing I've seen says that's so.
If you have reference otherwise, please post. Thanks.
And, to be completely clear: My post was in response to the discussion suggesting that somehow better trained pilots could have produced a different outcome in the Lion Air crash. Worth noting is that the Boeing/FAA directive is the steps necessary to recover, not direction to disable the system.
Nothing I've seen says that's so.
And, if possible, if allowed.
Nothing I've seen says that's so.
If you have reference otherwise, please post. Thanks.
And, to be completely clear: My post was in response to the discussion suggesting that somehow better trained pilots could have produced a different outcome in the Lion Air crash. Worth noting is that the Boeing/FAA directive is the steps necessary to recover, not direction to disable the system.
Last edited by ursine1; Nov 16, 2018 at 4:22 pm
Nov 16, 2018, 6:27 pm
#87
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,331
Must-read analysis and commentary:
https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/14/bo...to-the-pilots/
Hearing a couple of internet rumors that AA has disabled MCAS on their MAX’s. Anyone know?
https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/14/bo...to-the-pilots/
Hearing a couple of internet rumors that AA has disabled MCAS on their MAX’s. Anyone know?
Nov 16, 2018, 6:56 pm
#88
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Southwest had at least 2 737max control sensors fail (same part as Lionair)
from airliners.net user patplan:
Southwest Replaced Flight-Control Sensors of the Kind Implicated in Lion Air Crash
During the three weeks before Lion Air Flight 610 plunged into waters off Indonesia, Southwest Airlines Co. replaced two malfunctioning flight-control sensors of the same type that has been publicly implicated in the crash, according to a summary of Southwest maintenance records reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.
Both U.S. maintenance issues involved a Boeing Co. 737 MAX 8, the same model that crashed last month in Indonesia. The sensors measure whether the jetliner is angled above or below level flight.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/southwest-replaced-flight-control-sensors-of-the-kind-implicated-in-lion-air-crash-1542330689
Southwest Replaced Flight-Control Sensors of the Kind Implicated in Lion Air Crash
During the three weeks before Lion Air Flight 610 plunged into waters off Indonesia, Southwest Airlines Co. replaced two malfunctioning flight-control sensors of the same type that has been publicly implicated in the crash, according to a summary of Southwest maintenance records reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.
Both U.S. maintenance issues involved a Boeing Co. 737 MAX 8, the same model that crashed last month in Indonesia. The sensors measure whether the jetliner is angled above or below level flight.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/southwest-replaced-flight-control-sensors-of-the-kind-implicated-in-lion-air-crash-1542330689
Nov 16, 2018, 7:59 pm
#89
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Including this. Now, I have no way to tell which airline or even if that date (07/2017) is correct, but if it is, someone's dropped the ball somewhere.
Nov 17, 2018, 11:36 am
#90
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https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ion-air-crash/