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Southwest uses the same new Boeing plane in Indonesia crash

Southwest uses the same new Boeing plane in Indonesia crash

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Old Nov 7, 18, 6:20 am
  #31  
 
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That's lovely. Hopefully the MAX stays out of the northeast.
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Old Nov 7, 18, 6:36 am
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Yikes. Is the option to disengage the autopilot and hand flying the airplane now a thing of the past?
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Old Nov 7, 18, 7:47 am
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Would be useful to know whether the MAX systems and 737NG differ relative to "angle of attack" sensors.

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Old Nov 7, 18, 5:02 pm
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Old Nov 8, 18, 7:41 am
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Let's hope WN pilots are familiar with the runaway stabilizer procedures... According to Boeing, this problem only happens during manual flight. And the thinking is it might not be an actual AOA sensor problem, but with how the software feeds that data into the flight computer during manual flight.

In a nutshell, the pilots must put both stabilizer trim cutout switches into cutout mode otherwise they will be fighting repeated nose down trim inputs. They can fight it using electronic inputs (from the yoke) or manually holding the trim wheels on either side of the throttles to prevent them from moving.
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Old Nov 8, 18, 8:04 am
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Originally Posted by ave1024 View Post
That's lovely. Hopefully the MAX stays out of the northeast.
So, are you saying it should fly elsewhere instead?
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Old Nov 9, 18, 1:33 am
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As expected, the FAA followed up with an airworthiness directive, requiring pilots to become familiar with the procedure within the next three days.

However, there has been no mention yet of Boeing addressing the actual technical issue that causes the problem in the first place.

To be clear: There is a potentially serious technical issue with a specific type of aircraft, that appears to have caused (or at least contributed to) a recent fatal crash. Instructions have been issued to pilots regarding how to respond should the issue occur. Meanwhile, affected aircraft are still flying, and at the present there are no plans to ground them or even correct the actual technical issue.

I'm not a pilot, so help me out here. What would be the possible justifications for not immediately grounding these planes? (Legitimate question.)

The US government has ordered airlines to instruct pilots flying Boeing's 737 MAX on how to handle the potentially deadly flaw that may have caused the Lion Air crash

From the article:

"This condition, if not addressed, could cause the flight crew to have difficulty controlling the airplane, and lead to excessive nose-down attitude, significant altitude loss, and possible impact with terrain."

In addition, the agency found that potentially deadly flaw may manifest itself again in other Boeing 737 MAX aircraft.
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Old Nov 9, 18, 10:02 am
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Originally Posted by ursine1 View Post
Meanwhile, affected aircraft are still flying, and at the present there are no plans to ground them or even correct the actual technical issue.

I'm not a pilot, so help me out here. What would be the possible justifications for not immediately grounding these planes? (Legitimate question.)
AFAIK, the actual technical issue hasn't been nailed down yet. It appears that the AOA sensor was replaced between some of the 4 flights where anomalies were reported, which suggests that the flaw wasn't in the AOA sensor itself, but in some other aspect of various systems that all rely AOA and other air system inputs. The bulletin to reinforce a flightcrew's awareness of the importance to "RTFM" as far as NNR (non-normal recovery) procedures to deal with a potential repeat of the situation seems prudent, until a definitive culprit can be identified and corrected.

You may recall the cases of the UA 737 accident at COS, and the US 737 accident at PIT. Occurring some months apart, the leading suspects at the time were a horizontal wind rotor cloud in the lee of the Rockies in the COS case, and an encounter with the wingtip vortices of an aircraft ahead of 427. Data eventually showed that a rudder hardover was possible in a certain airspeed range, and a similar Ops Manual bulletin and AD went out mandating corrective speeds until rudder PCUs could be re-designed and installed.

Not all accident causes are clearly evident at the outset. I'm personally wondering if there might be a bad line of computer code somewhere in the system.
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Old Nov 9, 18, 2:48 pm
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Understood.

And we don't ground the planes until the cause (and fix) is fully known because that would cost a lot of money.

I wonder what the pilots think?
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Old Nov 9, 18, 5:30 pm
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Originally Posted by OPNLguy View Post
Data eventually showed that a rudder hardover was possible in a certain airspeed range, and a similar Ops Manual bulletin and AD went out mandating corrective speeds until rudder PCUs could be re-designed and installed.
Beat me to it- and also, IIRC WN is/was the largest (domestic?) 737 operator at the time before the root cause was determined, and never had an incident related to the hardovers.

(Also wouldn't surprise me to find out that WN's pilots are better trained and more-experienced than those of a third-world country.)
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Old Nov 10, 18, 2:12 am
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Originally Posted by kennycrudup View Post

(Also wouldn't surprise me to find out that WN's pilots are better trained and more-experienced than those of a third-world country.)
For everyone's sake I certainly hope so.
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Old Nov 10, 18, 7:43 am
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Originally Posted by joshua362 View Post
Yikes. Is the option to disengage the autopilot and hand flying the airplane now a thing of the past?
A New York Times piece noted that MAXs have an automatic nose-down feature that earlier 737s and NGs lacked - to prevent stalls. An errant angle of attack reading could trigger it. Apparently that needs to be fought (strength) or disabled - and pilots won't have a lot of time to figure that out if at low altitude.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/09/w...crash-610.html
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Old Nov 10, 18, 9:49 am
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Originally Posted by 3Cforme View Post
. Apparently that needs to be fought (strength) or disabled - and pilots won't have a lot of time to figure that out if at low altitude.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/09/w...crash-610.html
at 5000ft altitude and 700fps sink rate they have OVER 6 seconds to REALIZE there is an issue, troubleshoot the problem, brace their feet against the flight deck, and pull back on the yoke with ALL their force. Plus of course whatever any delayed response rate is on the aircraft.

Maybe WN pilots can do this at 2000ft altitude, in under 3 seconds?
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Old Nov 10, 18, 2:16 pm
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Originally Posted by 3Cforme View Post
A New York Times piece noted that MAXs have an automatic nose-down feature that earlier 737s and NGs lacked - to prevent stalls.
Has there been a problem with 737's or any other aircraft type stalling?
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Old Nov 10, 18, 7:13 pm
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Originally Posted by lougord99 View Post
Has there been a problem with 737's or any other aircraft type stalling?
Sure. A stall is one of the more frequent control failures.
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