COS: WN vs. DL (A comparison of Customers of Size Policies from Experience)
Mar 9, 2018, 11:52 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
COS: WN vs. DL (A comparison of Customers of Size Policies from Experience)
I realize this is a narrow interest discussion, but it may be good to know for friends and family members.
I have been traveling WN for many years and have a great appreciation for the policy for COS that I use. It is generous and easy. I recently had to book a flight to a non-WN city without a close WN airport. DL was the preferred carrier.
First a policy overview. On WN, you can purchase a second seat using cash or points. It is all done online by entering XS as the middle initial for your name for the second seat. Once the flight is completed, you can request a refund of the points or cash. Alternately, you can ask for a second seat at the gate. I have never done this but it seems risky. Others have said it works great as long as space is available. WN staff will not allow either one if clearly not a COS.
On DL, you buy two seats. The second seat is given the middle name EXST. The seat is not refundable. If you wait until you get to the gate and clearly need a second seat, DL may refuse boarding if there is not seat on the flight. You pay full current fare for the second seat bought at the gate. Safe is to buy the second seat ahead. DL gives you full second seat privileges. You get double the carry on allowance. You also get miles/points for both seats on DL. That is not true on WN. In some cases, First Class may be as cheap as two seats, but be careful as many flights use commuter jets that do not have larger first class seats.
For DL, I could find no method to buy the second seat online, so I used the phone. Expect holds, often long ones. In the end, I had the second seat all booked and paid, and it was only slightly higher than a WGA fare for a WN airport over 100 miles away. I decided the drive was not worth the price. There is a small catch. The two seats need to be side by side (duh!) and the only way to guarantee this is pre-assigned seating. This was not possible with a Basic Economy ticket so I had to upgrade both seats to Main Cabin to get the seats assigned together. I had no choice in seat assignments at booking, but I was able to go in and move my seats after they were booked. WN accomplishes the similar "two seats must be together" dilemma by allowing COS to preboard.
After the booking and on the flight, everything was smooth. I boarded with my group. I scanned my BP and had to show the second seat pass (no reserved seat document) so that their counts would be off. I forgot this on one of the early legs and the OA came on to verify counts. I saw immediately that this might be the problem and called the OA back and showed my EXST BP and she was good to go. As it is not open seating, the empty seat was not an issue.
Between the booking and the flight is when things were not smooth and is more an issue of general differences rather that COS policy. My first scheduled flight had to be rebooked when I got the flu. As I had a doctor's statement, they waived the change fees. This is a big deal. You pay the change fee and additional fare for both tickets. I still had to pay the significantly higher new fare X2. It gets worse.
My customer had to reschedule. So I had to cancel the reservation and hold the funds in reserve. Both tickets were subject to the change fee if rebooked. For a while, I did not know if the customer would rebook, so I could have been on the hook for both tickets. When the customer called to reschedule and I bought two more tickets, the new fare was less but not enough less to offset the $400 in change fees at $200 per seat.
With DL, there are lots of incentives to book round trips and all passengers on one ticket. First, the round trip was much cheaper than two one ways in every routing I checked. Some were less than half of individual tickets. The change fees apply to the whole ticket. If you change a round trip, one change fee covers both coming and going. There are also more options to change flights the same day without cost. I did not use them. Also, both times I checked in I was shown an offer screen where I could put my name in the volunteer pool and select my price. There were fixed buttons for $100/$200/$300/$400/$500 and an undefined box where you could enter your own price. That created interesting possibilities for two seats.
Bottom line takeaway: WN is better value. The full refund of the second seat and no change fee is the best in the industry. However, if you are going somewhere where WN does not go, the DL system works and works smoothly. It can get real expensive real fast if you have to change flights and pay change fees.
Unrelated: After changing planes in DTW and LGA, I have come to appreciate the WN connection airports even more. LGA was a nightmare on a slow day. No wonder it turns to a zoo when things go abnormal. Detroit is just huge and I had a hike between flights. I could have used the shuttle, but I chose to walk. Whoever designed the flashing lighting in that tunnel between the terminals should be taken out back and caned. The jazz pianist at the Chick-fil-a/Qdoba was a nice addition.
One more: A full flight of 150+ on the Airbus something had exactly 0 preboarders.
I have been traveling WN for many years and have a great appreciation for the policy for COS that I use. It is generous and easy. I recently had to book a flight to a non-WN city without a close WN airport. DL was the preferred carrier.
First a policy overview. On WN, you can purchase a second seat using cash or points. It is all done online by entering XS as the middle initial for your name for the second seat. Once the flight is completed, you can request a refund of the points or cash. Alternately, you can ask for a second seat at the gate. I have never done this but it seems risky. Others have said it works great as long as space is available. WN staff will not allow either one if clearly not a COS.
On DL, you buy two seats. The second seat is given the middle name EXST. The seat is not refundable. If you wait until you get to the gate and clearly need a second seat, DL may refuse boarding if there is not seat on the flight. You pay full current fare for the second seat bought at the gate. Safe is to buy the second seat ahead. DL gives you full second seat privileges. You get double the carry on allowance. You also get miles/points for both seats on DL. That is not true on WN. In some cases, First Class may be as cheap as two seats, but be careful as many flights use commuter jets that do not have larger first class seats.
For DL, I could find no method to buy the second seat online, so I used the phone. Expect holds, often long ones. In the end, I had the second seat all booked and paid, and it was only slightly higher than a WGA fare for a WN airport over 100 miles away. I decided the drive was not worth the price. There is a small catch. The two seats need to be side by side (duh!) and the only way to guarantee this is pre-assigned seating. This was not possible with a Basic Economy ticket so I had to upgrade both seats to Main Cabin to get the seats assigned together. I had no choice in seat assignments at booking, but I was able to go in and move my seats after they were booked. WN accomplishes the similar "two seats must be together" dilemma by allowing COS to preboard.
After the booking and on the flight, everything was smooth. I boarded with my group. I scanned my BP and had to show the second seat pass (no reserved seat document) so that their counts would be off. I forgot this on one of the early legs and the OA came on to verify counts. I saw immediately that this might be the problem and called the OA back and showed my EXST BP and she was good to go. As it is not open seating, the empty seat was not an issue.
Between the booking and the flight is when things were not smooth and is more an issue of general differences rather that COS policy. My first scheduled flight had to be rebooked when I got the flu. As I had a doctor's statement, they waived the change fees. This is a big deal. You pay the change fee and additional fare for both tickets. I still had to pay the significantly higher new fare X2. It gets worse.
My customer had to reschedule. So I had to cancel the reservation and hold the funds in reserve. Both tickets were subject to the change fee if rebooked. For a while, I did not know if the customer would rebook, so I could have been on the hook for both tickets. When the customer called to reschedule and I bought two more tickets, the new fare was less but not enough less to offset the $400 in change fees at $200 per seat.
With DL, there are lots of incentives to book round trips and all passengers on one ticket. First, the round trip was much cheaper than two one ways in every routing I checked. Some were less than half of individual tickets. The change fees apply to the whole ticket. If you change a round trip, one change fee covers both coming and going. There are also more options to change flights the same day without cost. I did not use them. Also, both times I checked in I was shown an offer screen where I could put my name in the volunteer pool and select my price. There were fixed buttons for $100/$200/$300/$400/$500 and an undefined box where you could enter your own price. That created interesting possibilities for two seats.
Bottom line takeaway: WN is better value. The full refund of the second seat and no change fee is the best in the industry. However, if you are going somewhere where WN does not go, the DL system works and works smoothly. It can get real expensive real fast if you have to change flights and pay change fees.
Unrelated: After changing planes in DTW and LGA, I have come to appreciate the WN connection airports even more. LGA was a nightmare on a slow day. No wonder it turns to a zoo when things go abnormal. Detroit is just huge and I had a hike between flights. I could have used the shuttle, but I chose to walk. Whoever designed the flashing lighting in that tunnel between the terminals should be taken out back and caned. The jazz pianist at the Chick-fil-a/Qdoba was a nice addition.
One more: A full flight of 150+ on the Airbus something had exactly 0 preboarders.
Last edited by InkUnderNails; Mar 14, 2018 at 7:17 pm Reason: Fixed the airport code.
Mar 10, 2018, 7:06 pm
#2
Join Date: May 2004
Location: HYI/AUS/SAT originally TTN/EWR/PHL
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Posts: 1,190
I used to be a COS until about 6 months ago when I got this bad on going acid reflux and lost 80 lbs in 4 months because I wasn't eating much. WN has the best COS and other policies around. My boss always approves my vacation at the last minute and so I just book it anyway if it doesn 't get approved I just change the reservation with no fee. Sure the no assigned seat thing can be an issue especially with late arriving connections but its still worth it, the no charge for an extra seat is very generous
Mar 11, 2018, 7:31 am
#4
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Programs: MR LT Titanium, IHG Plat.,UA Premier Silver, & PA/OH Turnpike Million Miler
Posts: 2,316
Mar 11, 2018, 7:58 am
#5
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,509
"You may contact us for a refund of the cost of additional seating after travel" doesn't mean you will. Ones navigating A-list re-qualification might prefer the TQPs.
Mar 11, 2018, 10:09 am
#6
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 23,051
Not to be overly pedantic, but it's DTW (Detroit Metro Airport), not DET (Detroit City Airport). WN used to fly out of DET many, many years ago, but it hasn't had any commercial service in close to 20 years. If you were at Chick-fil-A (which is at the north end of concourse A), you definitely made a mistake when skipping the tram to get to the center of the airport as it's close to a half of a mile walk. However, at least DTW has moving walks and wide concourses (in ATL they are narrow and lack moving walks). If you take the elevators down to the tunnel instead of the escalators, there's a temporary shut-off switch for the light show right near the elevator if you find it too annoying.
Last edited by xliioper; Mar 11, 2018 at 10:21 am
Mar 14, 2018, 7:16 pm
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
Not to be overly pedantic, but it's DTW (Detroit Metro Airport), not DET (Detroit City Airport). WN used to fly out of DET many, many years ago, but it hasn't had any commercial service in close to 20 years. If you were at Chick-fil-A (which is at the north end of concourse A), you definitely made a mistake when skipping the tram to get to the center of the airport as it's close to a half of a mile walk. However, at least DTW has moving walks and wide concourses (in ATL they are narrow and lack moving walks). If you take the elevators down to the tunnel instead of the escalators, there's a temporary shut-off switch for the light show right near the elevator if you find it too annoying.
Mar 14, 2018, 7:20 pm
#9
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
No. I would have taken WN to ALB or MHT and then got stuck in Burlington because of the snowstorm on the day of my return flight. However, even staying an extra day in Burlington and rebooking for a day later would have been cheaper than the change fees.
Mar 14, 2018, 8:07 pm
#10
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,813
Thanks to the OP for the informative post. If you or someone else has experience with AA/UA, perhaps a thread in TravelBuzz would help a lot of people. A have a few questions regarding the WN policy:
- Is it true that a POS pays nothing at all for the second seat (pays for the seat, then gets full refund)? Seems very generous of WN, especially in this day of high load factors.
- Is there information on how WN defines a POS? Are there cases where a border-line sized person (or a skinny person trying to scam the policy) is denied an extra seat? Would they then not get the refund? As far as I can tell, the WN site is pretty vague, and lots of broad shouldered or tall people could reasonably claim to be 'Customers who are unable to lower both armrests and/or who encroach upon any portion of the adjacent seat'
Thanks for any insights.
- Is it true that a POS pays nothing at all for the second seat (pays for the seat, then gets full refund)? Seems very generous of WN, especially in this day of high load factors.
- Is there information on how WN defines a POS? Are there cases where a border-line sized person (or a skinny person trying to scam the policy) is denied an extra seat? Would they then not get the refund? As far as I can tell, the WN site is pretty vague, and lots of broad shouldered or tall people could reasonably claim to be 'Customers who are unable to lower both armrests and/or who encroach upon any portion of the adjacent seat'
Thanks for any insights.
Mar 14, 2018, 8:42 pm
#11
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,509
Probably safe to say 'POS' is not the preferred acronym here.
Southwest says you need to enter “XS” for the middle name. The hypothetical 'skinny person trying to scam the policy' can argue it abbreviates "extra small,” not extra seat.
Southwest says you need to enter “XS” for the middle name. The hypothetical 'skinny person trying to scam the policy' can argue it abbreviates "extra small,” not extra seat.
Mar 14, 2018, 8:44 pm
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
Thanks to the OP for the informative post. If you or someone else has experience with AA/UA, perhaps a thread in TravelBuzz would help a lot of people. A have a few questions regarding the WN policy:
- Is it true that a POS pays nothing at all for the second seat (pays for the seat, then gets full refund)? Seems very generous of WN, especially in this day of high load factors.
- Is there information on how WN defines a POS? Are there cases where a border-line sized person (or a skinny person trying to scam the policy) is denied an extra seat? Would they then not get the refund? As far as I can tell, the WN site is pretty vague, and lots of broad shouldered or tall people could reasonably claim to be 'Customers who are unable to lower both armrests and/or who encroach upon any portion of the adjacent seat'
Thanks for any insights.
- Is it true that a POS pays nothing at all for the second seat (pays for the seat, then gets full refund)? Seems very generous of WN, especially in this day of high load factors.
- Is there information on how WN defines a POS? Are there cases where a border-line sized person (or a skinny person trying to scam the policy) is denied an extra seat? Would they then not get the refund? As far as I can tell, the WN site is pretty vague, and lots of broad shouldered or tall people could reasonably claim to be 'Customers who are unable to lower both armrests and/or who encroach upon any portion of the adjacent seat'
Thanks for any insights.
Yes, the policy is just as you quote. The OA has some flexibility and may refuse the second seat for a marginal COS. I have always been a marginal plus a double cheeseburger and a side of fries COS. You would not want to sit next to me. I encroach, but not a whole lot. The main criteria seems to be the distance between the armrests at what I remember is 17". In all honesty, I can squeeze my derriere between the armrests, but that is not my encroachment region. They will dig in uncomfortably. If I raise them and then sit down, I can not lower the armrest completely. Automatic is the need for a seat belt extension. No questions if you need one.
Yes, I am surprised that the policy is as generous as it is.
If one is stopped trying to scam the system, they will likely lose the second seat. Unknown if they get the refund my guess is that they would. When I started flying as a COS, I had CP and claimed myself as my own companion. Yeah, it was funny and I made a lot of jokes about it. Yes, you can get a refund for the security fee, but I never did. Too much trouble for small reward. When I lost CP, I just started paying with points. In hundreds of flights as a COS I was only questioned twice and once was "A lot of people that need it more than you and do not do it." I said that was too bad for the people that had to sit by them and they relented. Another time I said if I was not a COS I was just a Quarter Pounder and a milkshake away from it. They laughed and said nothing else.
Mar 14, 2018, 8:48 pm
#13
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Posts: 8,043
You are correct. A person can make a reservation with the second seat as middle initial XS. Whether you get to keep the reservation is the question. Test this and let us know how it goes.
Mar 17, 2018, 2:52 pm
#15
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A couple comments about DL policies:
1. You're not supposed to earn status miles (MQMs), redeemable miles (RDMs), or segment credit MQSs) for the extra seat. I'm not sure whether the fare for the extra seat counts for the status spend requirements (MQDs). In fact, some musician was booted from the DL FF program some years ago in a celebrated incident for the fact that his cello had its own FF account (IIRC under Mr Cello LastnameOfMusician) and had been earning miles. (Obviously he wasn't making the bookings as EXTRASEAT.)
2. Apparently one can purchase an EXTRASEAT ticket for any reason or no reason at all. The treatment seems to be the same whether a COS needs the space or it's for an instrument or even if it's just for a claustrophobic customer.
3. There aren't any aircraft marketed as FC on DL with coach sized seats. The only aircraft without a genuine FC cabin with wider seats and fewer seats across would be the fifty seater RJs (CRJ-200s and IIRC E145s) operated as DeltaConnection. On these flights, you would never be able to purchase a FC seat or FC fare, although you might get a through fare with FC on the other (mainline) segments that would book into coach on the small RJs. The seat maps would be very clear than no FC is offered. OTOH, these barbiejets do have a row or two of C+ (comfort plus), which DL now considers to be sort of a different cabin, with assignments of elites here called "upgrades" and different fare/booking classes sold. However, these seats do not look at all like FC seats as they just have a few inches of extra pitch and include free (alcoholic) drinks and an enhanced (sort of like FC) snack basket on flights that are long enough.
4. You can apparently use the DL AmEx free companion ticket certs to purchase an EXTRASEAT for yourself, but AFAIK the main passenger and the EXTRASEAT must be on the same PNR, so that you could not pay with money for one seat and use miles for an award ticket for the other seat. Similarly, it could be difficult to purchase the EXTRASEAT after you bought the primary ticket, although I suspect that in practice calling DL would permit a totally free cancellation of the first ticket, to be replaced by the new ticket for both yourself and the EXTRASEAT at prevailing prices.
1. You're not supposed to earn status miles (MQMs), redeemable miles (RDMs), or segment credit MQSs) for the extra seat. I'm not sure whether the fare for the extra seat counts for the status spend requirements (MQDs). In fact, some musician was booted from the DL FF program some years ago in a celebrated incident for the fact that his cello had its own FF account (IIRC under Mr Cello LastnameOfMusician) and had been earning miles. (Obviously he wasn't making the bookings as EXTRASEAT.)
2. Apparently one can purchase an EXTRASEAT ticket for any reason or no reason at all. The treatment seems to be the same whether a COS needs the space or it's for an instrument or even if it's just for a claustrophobic customer.
3. There aren't any aircraft marketed as FC on DL with coach sized seats. The only aircraft without a genuine FC cabin with wider seats and fewer seats across would be the fifty seater RJs (CRJ-200s and IIRC E145s) operated as DeltaConnection. On these flights, you would never be able to purchase a FC seat or FC fare, although you might get a through fare with FC on the other (mainline) segments that would book into coach on the small RJs. The seat maps would be very clear than no FC is offered. OTOH, these barbiejets do have a row or two of C+ (comfort plus), which DL now considers to be sort of a different cabin, with assignments of elites here called "upgrades" and different fare/booking classes sold. However, these seats do not look at all like FC seats as they just have a few inches of extra pitch and include free (alcoholic) drinks and an enhanced (sort of like FC) snack basket on flights that are long enough.
4. You can apparently use the DL AmEx free companion ticket certs to purchase an EXTRASEAT for yourself, but AFAIK the main passenger and the EXTRASEAT must be on the same PNR, so that you could not pay with money for one seat and use miles for an award ticket for the other seat. Similarly, it could be difficult to purchase the EXTRASEAT after you bought the primary ticket, although I suspect that in practice calling DL would permit a totally free cancellation of the first ticket, to be replaced by the new ticket for both yourself and the EXTRASEAT at prevailing prices.