DL's had enough of fake ESAs- let's hope WN is next!
#136
#137
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: AA, DL, Avis, Enterprise, National, IHG, HH, SPG/MR
Posts: 1,852
Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. But you know what, that's ok. In fact, I'd love to be ignorant of a disabled traveler's needs. It would make like just that much simpler. I don't know of anyone that chooses to be disabled and give up some of the things that ignorant people take for granted. Things such as being able to walk from the door of the plane to the last row. Things such as being able to walk from their seat to the bathroom without someone's assistance. Things such as being able to stand unassisted for a few minutes so that you can line up with everyone else.
As you take these things for granted, allow me to explain why else you are wrong. The person I travel with cannot walk up and down the jetway.
They can take a few steps, with assistance to get from the door of the plane to the first few rows.
As you take these things for granted, allow me to explain why else you are wrong. The person I travel with cannot walk up and down the jetway.
They can take a few steps, with assistance to get from the door of the plane to the first few rows.
To tell someone that they must remain seated only because they need a wheelchair to get up and down the jetway is so demeaning and thoughtless. Those few steps are one of the only things this person can do for themselves (albeit with an arm to steady them). To basically tell them, "yes I know you could get off now and not hold anyone up, but to kb9522 you aren't really a person so we don't care that we are treating you differently because of your disability. You just sit there and twiddle your thumbs needlessly because of some arbitrary decision by someone who doesn't understand." I can see why that's not demeaning.
And if it wasn't completely clear how little you understand from the first part of your post, you decided to show the world just how closed-minded you are with the second part.
Open seating isn't an issue. It's actually a benefit. Because of open seating this person can preboard so that they can get a seat close to the front of the plane.
[/QUOTE] On legacies where you have to walk through first class, even the closest available coach seats can require the use of an aisle chair. [/QUOTE]
The implication of my statement was that in the case where a seat in the front is needed but assistance is not, one should be expect to pay for the seat they want (if that's F, then it's F).
So no, there's no scam. We would gladly trade the seats we get near the front for the back row of the plane if it meant that we didn't have to deal with the disability.
Don't demean them and take their dignity away by implying that they are an inconvenience to everyone else.
#138
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 921
Pet owners should be forced to buy an extra seat. Those small dogs are freaking annoying. They are not quiet. And I just resent having to sit next to a pet owner and the pet. It's not the same as a backpack under the seat. If it was just luggage, then there should be no problem putting it in the overhead bin., Oh wait, someone tried that already.
If we're talking Southwest Airlines here, they have this great policy - sit in any seat. I doubt the dog owner is hiding the dog until the flight is full. If you find yourself next to a dog, feel free to move. If you don't want to move, that's on you.
#139
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,868
This discussion is a flashback to this thread.
#140
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: ORD, MDW or MKE
Programs: American and Southwest. Hilton and Marriott hotels primarily.
Posts: 6,454
This passenger can walk to the first few rows, BUT NOT Further. The only way to assure this is to pre-board. Now this passenger can walk off the plane BECAUSE THEY WERE IN THE FIRST FEW ROWS.
#141
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: AA, DL, Avis, Enterprise, National, IHG, HH, SPG/MR
Posts: 1,852
You and others can continue the insults all you want, it doesn't make you correct.
#142
Join Date: Sep 2010
Programs: Avis Preferred Plus
Posts: 622
So if they buy an extra seat, the dog will still be sitting next to you. Or if not next to you, then the dog will still be annoying.
If we're talking Southwest Airlines here, they have this great policy - sit in any seat. I doubt the dog owner is hiding the dog until the flight is full. If you find yourself next to a dog, feel free to move. If you don't want to move, that's on you.
If we're talking Southwest Airlines here, they have this great policy - sit in any seat. I doubt the dog owner is hiding the dog until the flight is full. If you find yourself next to a dog, feel free to move. If you don't want to move, that's on you.
#143
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,238
To then tell them, when they are literally 10 feet from the door, and can get from their seat to the door and out to the wheelchair, that they must sit there even though no one is walking past them, is extremely demeaning They know they can get up, walk the 10 steps and get to the wheelchair without holding people up but your solution is that they must sit there and wait and be the last person off the plane for no other reason than they used a wheelchair to get up and down the jetway. If that's not clear enough for you consider this. There is a break in the passenger stream (again because there are people who able bodied but clueless and hold up the line while getting their bag, etc) so we get up to go. FA says "sorry you need to remain seated".
"Why?"
"Because you use a wheelchair to get up and down the jetway so just sit there and don't slow down the rest of the passengers."
We look around to the empty aisle and the passengers half way back on the plane and say to the FA "but we aren't holding anyone up".
FA says "sorry but you preboarded so now you have to wait".
"So even though we can get off without holding anyone up, we have to sit here as 'punishment' for preboarding?"
"No it's not punishment."
"Oh, so you are just treating us differently because of this person's disability?"
"Yes. Wait, no. No, we don't discriminate or treat people differently."
"So we can get off the plane?"
"No. Wait, yes. Er, no." "Sir please just accept that you have to sit there and wait for no good reason."
Nothing like taking away someone's dignity by treating them like an outcast. So there's that.
No, not really. But does it make you feel good to treat people with disabilities like they are an inconvenience?
If you are saying the passenger needs assistance, then preboarding is fine. And sure, you can sit in the front in that case. But somehow this same passenger magically does not need assistance to deplane... that's where it breaks down. If the passenger does not require assistance, they should board normally. If you NEED a seat in the front and do not need assistance to board, then open seating doesn't make sense... It makes far more sense in such cases to pay for a seat in the front on a carrier with reserved seating.
And you really proved my point for me in your last sentence. I'm traveling with a passenger who requires assistance to get up the jetway but no one else has to wait because personnel aren't boarding to assist, so, according to you, we are not inconveniencing others. But that contradicts your position that if you preboard you must wait until everyone else is off because it inconveniences all the fit folks.
It's a statement of fact that if you know nothing of a subject, you are ignorant of it. That's not an insult, it's just what it is, and like I said, clearly you are ignorant of what it means to be disabled and consequently you are demeaning those that are disabled by suggesting that they be treated as an "inconvenience".
Oh, and for the record, the FA knows that we need a wheelchair up the jetway. They have that info. They always tell us if the wheelchair hasn't arrived yet and if it hasn't we have no problem sitting and waiting as we can't go anywhere anyway. But to sit and wait when the chair is there and no one is close to us in the aisle just because you think that some arbitrary rule is the way to go just makes no sense.
Last edited by justhere; Mar 29, 2018 at 11:49 pm
#144
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,855
As a related aside, on legacies, an FA would usually let us know when the wheelchair agent had arrived, and we would deplane then. My father could walk short distances - actually much further than the distance of a plane aisle, at least all of the times we took him on air trips - but the full airport experience was much too far for him.
I do tend to agree that someone who needs the wheelchair assist for the distance on the way in should need the assistance on the way out too. I'm not saying there aren't people who abuse the system, but I don't think the situation described sounds like abuse.
#145
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: RNO
Programs: AA/DL/UA
Posts: 10,745
The fact that ten times as many people "need" to preboard on Southwest but don't on any other airline with assigned seats tells me that about 90% of the pre-boarders are fake and abusing the system to get a seat up front. They simply want to pre-board and create a need to do so.
#146
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,238
The fact that ten times as many people "need" to preboard on Southwest but don't on any other airline with assigned seats tells me that about 90% of the pre-boarders are fake and abusing the system to get a seat up front. They simply want to pre-board and create a need to do so.
You can't do either on WN so you have to preboard if your disability qualifies you to do so under the law and you need a specific seat or type of seat. WN cannot dispute the passengers claim so it is open to abuse but the open seating would almost always have more preboard passengers than the same passengers boarding another airline.
#148
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: LAX/SMF/PDX/HNL
Programs: Hilton-lifetime diamond, Southwest A+, companion pass
Posts: 1,731
Arizona just passed a law making it a crime to misrepresent a pet as service animal. Don't know how this applies to an emotional support animal or if the state has any jurisdiction at the airports.
"Without comment, Gov. Doug Ducey on Tuesday signed legislation that makes it illegal to “fraudulently misrepresent” any animal as a service animal to someone who operates a public place or business. Judges can impose fines of up to $250 for each violation.
The legislation is the culmination of efforts by Sen. John Kavanagh, R-Fountain Hills, to keep family pets out of where they don’t belong. And he doesn’t care whether they’re well behaved or not.
“I don’t want some dog being wheeled around a supermarket in the same cart I’ll put my food in later,” he told colleagues during a hearing earlier this month."
"Without comment, Gov. Doug Ducey on Tuesday signed legislation that makes it illegal to “fraudulently misrepresent” any animal as a service animal to someone who operates a public place or business. Judges can impose fines of up to $250 for each violation.
The legislation is the culmination of efforts by Sen. John Kavanagh, R-Fountain Hills, to keep family pets out of where they don’t belong. And he doesn’t care whether they’re well behaved or not.
“I don’t want some dog being wheeled around a supermarket in the same cart I’ll put my food in later,” he told colleagues during a hearing earlier this month."
#149
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: SNA
Programs: Bonvoy LTTE/AMB, AmEx Plat, National EE, WN A-List, CLEAR+, Covid-19
Posts: 4,957
I dont want some dog being wheeled around a supermarket in the same cart Ill put my food in later, he told colleagues during a hearing earlier this month."
#150
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
https://www.transportation.gov/sites...ls-TriFold.pdf
https://www.transportation.gov/sites...20030509_2.pdf
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...e14.4.382_1117
Service animals can include specifically trained dogs, cats, horses, pigs, monkeys and the like. The same list of animals could be emotional support animals if the passenger presents the required documentation from their mental health professional.