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DL's had enough of fake ESAs- let's hope WN is next!

DL's had enough of fake ESAs- let's hope WN is next!

Old Mar 28, 2018, 11:39 pm
  #136  
nsx
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Originally Posted by toomanybooks
why exactly may I not say I need to have my specific alcoholic beverage to do the same?
Emotional support drink?
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Old Mar 29, 2018, 10:25 am
  #137  
 
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Originally Posted by justhere
Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. But you know what, that's ok. In fact, I'd love to be ignorant of a disabled traveler's needs. It would make like just that much simpler. I don't know of anyone that chooses to be disabled and give up some of the things that ignorant people take for granted. Things such as being able to walk from the door of the plane to the last row. Things such as being able to walk from their seat to the bathroom without someone's assistance. Things such as being able to stand unassisted for a few minutes so that you can line up with everyone else.

As you take these things for granted, allow me to explain why else you are wrong. The person I travel with cannot walk up and down the jetway.

They can take a few steps, with assistance to get from the door of the plane to the first few rows.
Your irrelevant wall of text aside, your travel companion - by your own admission - needs assistance. Nobody should not find it unreasonable or demeaning to have to wait until the plane is clear before personnel can come on to assist.

To tell someone that they must remain seated only because they need a wheelchair to get up and down the jetway is so demeaning and thoughtless. Those few steps are one of the only things this person can do for themselves (albeit with an arm to steady them). To basically tell them, "yes I know you could get off now and not hold anyone up, but to kb9522 you aren't really a person so we don't care that we are treating you differently because of your disability. You just sit there and twiddle your thumbs needlessly because of some arbitrary decision by someone who doesn't understand." I can see why that's not demeaning.
How on earth is it even remotely demeaning? They have already admitted they need assistance, the timing of the arrival of that assistance is absolutely irrelevant.


And if it wasn't completely clear how little you understand from the first part of your post, you decided to show the world just how closed-minded you are with the second part.
More insults... does it make you feel better?

Open seating isn't an issue. It's actually a benefit. Because of open seating this person can preboard so that they can get a seat close to the front of the plane.
If you are saying the passenger needs assistance, then preboarding is fine. And sure, you can sit in the front in that case. But somehow this same passenger magically does not need assistance to deplane... that's where it breaks down. If the passenger does not require assistance, they should board normally. If you NEED a seat in the front and do not need assistance to board, then open seating doesn't make sense... It makes far more sense in such cases to pay for a seat in the front on a carrier with reserved seating.

[/QUOTE] On legacies where you have to walk through first class, even the closest available coach seats can require the use of an aisle chair. [/QUOTE]
The implication of my statement was that in the case where a seat in the front is needed but assistance is not, one should be expect to pay for the seat they want (if that's F, then it's F).

So no, there's no scam. We would gladly trade the seats we get near the front for the back row of the plane if it meant that we didn't have to deal with the disability.

Don't demean them and take their dignity away by implying that they are an inconvenience to everyone else.
It's not demeaning or taking away their dignity. It's a statement of fact that passengers who require assistance to deplane will inconvenience others if everyone else has to wait to deplane so that personnel can board to assist first.
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Old Mar 29, 2018, 10:55 am
  #138  
 
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Originally Posted by saneman
Pet owners should be forced to buy an extra seat. Those small dogs are freaking annoying. They are not quiet. And I just resent having to sit next to a pet owner and the pet. It's not the same as a backpack under the seat. If it was just luggage, then there should be no problem putting it in the overhead bin., Oh wait, someone tried that already.
So if they buy an extra seat, the dog will still be sitting next to you. Or if not next to you, then the dog will still be annoying.

If we're talking Southwest Airlines here, they have this great policy - sit in any seat. I doubt the dog owner is hiding the dog until the flight is full. If you find yourself next to a dog, feel free to move. If you don't want to move, that's on you.
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Old Mar 29, 2018, 11:56 am
  #139  
 
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Originally Posted by kb9522
If you are saying the passenger needs assistance, then preboarding is fine. And sure, you can sit in the front in that case. But somehow this same passenger magically does not need assistance to deplane... that's where it breaks down.
Right. It's odd to think a passenger needing assistance to the plane would NOT need assistance off the plane. Is there a safety difference in travel direction for the passenger? The passenger should remain seated until others deplane for his/her safety (to avoid getting hit by luggage, run over by other passengers, etc).

This discussion is a flashback to this thread.
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Old Mar 29, 2018, 4:13 pm
  #140  
 
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Originally Posted by kb9522
If you are saying the passenger needs assistance, then preboarding is fine. And sure, you can sit in the front in that case. But somehow this same passenger magically does not need assistance to deplane... that's where it breaks down..
Do you not know how to read or are you purposefully ignoring the facts.

This passenger can walk to the first few rows, BUT NOT Further. The only way to assure this is to pre-board. Now this passenger can walk off the plane BECAUSE THEY WERE IN THE FIRST FEW ROWS.
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Old Mar 29, 2018, 8:32 pm
  #141  
 
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Originally Posted by lougord99
Do you not know how to read or are you purposefully ignoring the facts.

This passenger can walk to the first few rows, BUT NOT Further. The only way to assure this is to pre-board. Now this passenger can walk off the plane BECAUSE THEY WERE IN THE FIRST FEW ROWS.
Or in other words they do not need assistance or preboarding. They need a seat in the front. The rest of us pay for that privilege.

You and others can continue the insults all you want, it doesn't make you correct.
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Old Mar 29, 2018, 9:17 pm
  #142  
 
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Originally Posted by jeffandnicole
So if they buy an extra seat, the dog will still be sitting next to you. Or if not next to you, then the dog will still be annoying.

If we're talking Southwest Airlines here, they have this great policy - sit in any seat. I doubt the dog owner is hiding the dog until the flight is full. If you find yourself next to a dog, feel free to move. If you don't want to move, that's on you.
I actually sat in an aisle seat and then a lady with an annoying lil dog with lil dog syndrome that was yapping away occasionally sat in the middle seat later on. Luckily, someone vacated the aisle in the row next to me for some reason and I took that seat later. Otherwise, I would be stuck sitting next to this person and her annoying dog that is not that far from my feet.
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Old Mar 29, 2018, 11:43 pm
  #143  
 
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Originally Posted by kb9522
Your irrelevant wall of text aside, your travel companion - by your own admission - needs assistance. Nobody should not find it unreasonable or demeaning to have to wait until the plane is clear before personnel can come on to assist.
No one needs to come on to assist. I'm there to assist. How is that not clear to you? You even said "your travel companion". Obviously, by definition, I'm with them. The assistance they need is the wheelchair up and down the jetway. My assistance on board is for the most part just to be right there in case they stumble. They cannot, without a lot of difficulty walk more than a few steps. They don't need an aisle chair for two reasons. One, the more they get up and down, the more it hurts, and two, it simply takes longer to use the aisle chair than to walk a few steps.

To then tell them, when they are literally 10 feet from the door, and can get from their seat to the door and out to the wheelchair, that they must sit there even though no one is walking past them, is extremely demeaning They know they can get up, walk the 10 steps and get to the wheelchair without holding people up but your solution is that they must sit there and wait and be the last person off the plane for no other reason than they used a wheelchair to get up and down the jetway. If that's not clear enough for you consider this. There is a break in the passenger stream (again because there are people who able bodied but clueless and hold up the line while getting their bag, etc) so we get up to go. FA says "sorry you need to remain seated".
"Why?"
"Because you use a wheelchair to get up and down the jetway so just sit there and don't slow down the rest of the passengers."
We look around to the empty aisle and the passengers half way back on the plane and say to the FA "but we aren't holding anyone up".
FA says "sorry but you preboarded so now you have to wait".
"So even though we can get off without holding anyone up, we have to sit here as 'punishment' for preboarding?"
"No it's not punishment."
"Oh, so you are just treating us differently because of this person's disability?"
"Yes. Wait, no. No, we don't discriminate or treat people differently."
"So we can get off the plane?"
"No. Wait, yes. Er, no." "Sir please just accept that you have to sit there and wait for no good reason."

Nothing like taking away someone's dignity by treating them like an outcast. So there's that.
Originally Posted by kb9522
How on earth is it even remotely demeaning? They have already admitted they need assistance, the timing of the arrival of that assistance is absolutely irrelevant.
I don't think I said anything about the arrival of any assistance so not sure where you are going with that.
Originally Posted by kb9522
More insults... does it make you feel better?
No, not really. But does it make you feel good to treat people with disabilities like they are an inconvenience?
Originally Posted by kb9522
If you are saying the passenger needs assistance, then preboarding is fine. And sure, you can sit in the front in that case. But somehow this same passenger magically does not need assistance to deplane... that's where it breaks down. If the passenger does not require assistance, they should board normally. If you NEED a seat in the front and do not need assistance to board, then open seating doesn't make sense... It makes far more sense in such cases to pay for a seat in the front on a carrier with reserved seating.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it and how many more times I can say that they need a wheelchair up and down the jetway before you'll understand the situation. I never said they don't need assistance to deplane. I said they can walk the ~10 steps to the door of the plane. They may hold on to seats on both sides of the aisle and then my arm or hand as they navigate the galley area and out the door to the wheelchair, or they may not depending on how they are doing. If that's your definition of not needing assistance to deplane then If they didn't preboard and had to sit further back on the plane, they would still need a wheelchair down the jetway and an aisle chair. WN is going to want to preboard us whether we wanted to or not. So the easiest thing for both WN and us, and the other passengers to help speed things up, is the wheelchair down the jetway, ~10 steps to a seat, and out of everyone's way. And because of that your solution is to make us wait for no good reason to deplane.
Originally Posted by kb9522
It's not demeaning or taking away their dignity. It's a statement of fact that passengers who require assistance to deplane will inconvenience others if everyone else has to wait to deplane so that personnel can board to assist first.
Where in my little discourse did I say that personnel have to board to assist us? I specifically said that different people have different needs depending on their disability. That, and that alone, should determine the best time for the person to deplane. My whole point was that your blanket statement is demeaning because it just takes a whole group of people and brushes them aside based on nothing other than an arbitrary thought. That is demeaning to those people.

And you really proved my point for me in your last sentence. I'm traveling with a passenger who requires assistance to get up the jetway but no one else has to wait because personnel aren't boarding to assist, so, according to you, we are not inconveniencing others. But that contradicts your position that if you preboard you must wait until everyone else is off because it inconveniences all the fit folks.
Originally Posted by kb9522
Or in other words they do not need assistance or preboarding. They need a seat in the front. The rest of us pay for that privilege.
You and others can continue the insults all you want, it doesn't make you correct.
WN makes us preboard whether we want to or not because of the need for the wheelchair down the jetway. And they do not let me push the chair down the jetway. So I have no choice but to use their assistance. So even if the law didn't support preboarding on an open seating airline, WN would likely preboard us anyway. And I don't consider it a privilege or feel lucky that we get a seat near the front. It's a constant reminder of the curve ball that life can throw at people.

It's a statement of fact that if you know nothing of a subject, you are ignorant of it. That's not an insult, it's just what it is, and like I said, clearly you are ignorant of what it means to be disabled and consequently you are demeaning those that are disabled by suggesting that they be treated as an "inconvenience".

Oh, and for the record, the FA knows that we need a wheelchair up the jetway. They have that info. They always tell us if the wheelchair hasn't arrived yet and if it hasn't we have no problem sitting and waiting as we can't go anywhere anyway. But to sit and wait when the chair is there and no one is close to us in the aisle just because you think that some arbitrary rule is the way to go just makes no sense.

Last edited by justhere; Mar 29, 2018 at 11:49 pm
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Old Mar 29, 2018, 11:43 pm
  #144  
 
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Originally Posted by kb9522


Or in other words they do not need assistance or preboarding. They need a seat in the front. The rest of us pay for that privilege.

You and others can continue the insults all you want, it doesn't make you correct.
On an open seating airline, requiring a seat up front is handled by giving them preboard status. Southwest couldn't come up with a better solution, do you have one?

As a related aside, on legacies, an FA would usually let us know when the wheelchair agent had arrived, and we would deplane then. My father could walk short distances - actually much further than the distance of a plane aisle, at least all of the times we took him on air trips - but the full airport experience was much too far for him.

I do tend to agree that someone who needs the wheelchair assist for the distance on the way in should need the assistance on the way out too. I'm not saying there aren't people who abuse the system, but I don't think the situation described sounds like abuse.
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Old Mar 30, 2018, 1:48 am
  #145  
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The fact that ten times as many people "need" to preboard on Southwest but don't on any other airline with assigned seats tells me that about 90% of the pre-boarders are fake and abusing the system to get a seat up front. They simply want to pre-board and create a need to do so.
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Old Mar 30, 2018, 11:07 pm
  #146  
 
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Originally Posted by Kevin AA
The fact that ten times as many people "need" to preboard on Southwest but don't on any other airline with assigned seats tells me that about 90% of the pre-boarders are fake and abusing the system to get a seat up front. They simply want to pre-board and create a need to do so.
I have no doubt that there are people pre boarding that shouldn't on WN. However you can't really compare it the way you are doing. Less people need to pre board on other airlines precisely because they have an assigned seat. They've either selected the seat they need or the airline has assigned it based on their need.

You can't do either on WN so you have to preboard if your disability qualifies you to do so under the law and you need a specific seat or type of seat. WN cannot dispute the passengers claim so it is open to abuse but the open seating would almost always have more preboard passengers than the same passengers boarding another airline.
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Old Apr 19, 2018, 12:16 pm
  #147  
 
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Now that Alaska tightening up, will WN follow?
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Old Apr 19, 2018, 10:16 pm
  #148  
 
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Arizona just passed a law making it a crime to misrepresent a pet as service animal. Don't know how this applies to an emotional support animal or if the state has any jurisdiction at the airports.

"Without comment, Gov. Doug Ducey on Tuesday signed legislation that makes it illegal to “fraudulently misrepresent” any animal as a service animal to someone who operates a public place or business. Judges can impose fines of up to $250 for each violation.

The legislation is the culmination of efforts by Sen. John Kavanagh, R-Fountain Hills, to keep family pets out of where they don’t belong. And he doesn’t care whether they’re well behaved or not.

“I don’t want some dog being wheeled around a supermarket in the same cart I’ll put my food in later,” he told colleagues during a hearing earlier this month."
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Old Apr 20, 2018, 1:35 pm
  #149  
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I dont want some dog being wheeled around a supermarket in the same cart Ill put my food in later, he told colleagues during a hearing earlier this month."
Sanity! What is the world coming to?!
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Old Apr 21, 2018, 12:50 am
  #150  
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Originally Posted by Troopers
To be clear, service animals are limited to dogs per federal law. All other animals are emotional support.
That is not correct. Under the ACAA, service animals can include dogs, cats, miniature horses, pigs, monkeys, etc. Airlines need not accept certain unusual service animals such as snakes, other reptiles, ferrets, rodents, and spiders. Foreign airlines need not accept any service animals that are not dogs, but domestic airlines may not refuse all non-dog service animals.

https://www.transportation.gov/sites...ls-TriFold.pdf
https://www.transportation.gov/sites...20030509_2.pdf
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...e14.4.382_1117

Service animals can include specifically trained dogs, cats, horses, pigs, monkeys and the like. The same list of animals could be emotional support animals if the passenger presents the required documentation from their mental health professional.
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