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-   -   WN loses money at ICT; maxes out the guaranteed $6.5 mill reimbursement for losses (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/southwest-airlines-rapid-rewards/1619308-wn-loses-money-ict-maxes-out-guaranteed-6-5-mill-reimbursement-losses.html)

toomanybooks Oct 9, 2014 12:41 pm

WN loses money at ICT; maxes out the guaranteed $6.5 mill reimbursement for losses
 
http://www.kansas.com/news/business/article2627232.html

expert7700 Oct 9, 2014 3:33 pm

quite a contrast between ICT and Panama City (ECP) where Southwest was apparently so pleased with the early numbers that they cancelled a multiple-year minimum revenue guarantee less than a year into the agreement.

These smaller markets are quite justified in their fears that Southwest may discontinue service. I'd have never predicted them cancelling Key West or Branson after serving those markets for such a short time.

rsteinmetz70112 Oct 9, 2014 3:38 pm

Apparently they got lost finding Branson.

alggag Oct 9, 2014 5:41 pm

Pretty pessimistic article, makes it sound like it's just a matter of when they close the operation with just a slight of hope of it standing on its own.

I'm a little surprised, I knew ICT wasn't going to put up amazing numbers but I figured it would do okay in the Southwest network.

LegalTender Oct 9, 2014 6:00 pm


Southwest has about a 68 percent load factor – how full its planes are – on the Dallas and Chicago routes from Wichita, Boyd said.
Are load factors publicly available?


“We’ve been pleased with our operations and are meeting our performance goals. Wichita has performed very well for us and we hope to see that market grow.”
SWA's Dan Lansdon, June 27, 2014

joshua362 Oct 9, 2014 6:11 pm

"The airline posted a loss of $6.83 million from July 2013 to February 2014 on the two routes to Dallas Love Field and Chicago Midway, the information said."

This much in 8 months on two routes? Is there 8x a day daily service to each? I suspect some very creative accounting here, heavy allocations of corporate expenses...

toomanybooks Oct 9, 2014 6:14 pm


Originally Posted by joshua362 (Post 23653526)
I suspect some very creative accounting here, heavy allocations of corporate expenses...

Yeah, I don't know much about accounting, but I can imagine there may be some games to play.

expert7700 Oct 9, 2014 6:54 pm

Maybe the contract was reviewed and signed by ICT after a bit too much free Wild Turkey 101.... Maybe Southwest got to define "Loss" as loss of "Potential" profit assuming, 90% of people booked business select and the other 10% were habitual no-shows who forfeit their fares.

Either way, I think we may have just uncovered a partial source of that "Cost Neutral" money for paying the consultants, rebranding, repainting the planes, etc.

Texas Booster Oct 10, 2014 5:55 am

There are two flights daily from DAL to ICT during the week and one flight on the weekends.

WN can't find 300 people who want to fly to ICT instead of OKC?

flyventure Oct 10, 2014 6:51 am


Originally Posted by LegalTender (Post 23653475)
Are load factors publicly available?

They are. You just need to pull the T-100 data for segments which will give you the total pax and total seats offered per month.

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/DL_Sele...Air%20Carriers

3Cforme Oct 10, 2014 9:13 am


Originally Posted by joshua362 (Post 23653526)
This much in 8 months on two routes? Is there 8x a day daily service to each? I suspect some very creative accounting here, heavy allocations of corporate expenses...

I suspect that Southwest management and lawyers are aware of penalties (and taxpayer ill will) for defrauding a government entity. Allocations will be consistent across geography and time absent compelling reasons to change the methodology.

rsteinmetz70112 Oct 10, 2014 9:22 am


Originally Posted by toomanybooks (Post 23653536)
Yeah, I don't know much about accounting, but I can imagine there may be some games to play.

I'd imagine the contract has some very specific language about how to calculate the "loss" which may or may not mean Southwest actually "lost" money on those flights. We know Southwest was able to make money with lower load factors in the past. For example the loss may be a theoretical loss of income based on the route performing up to the system average or some specific benchmarks.

FWAAA Oct 10, 2014 10:42 am

Wonder whether United, Delta and American are receiving similar revenue guarantees for their service? I like WN, but Kanas is laying out some serious money for duplicative service to Chicago and Dallas. And apparently the passengers aren't willing to pay WN sufficient fares for those flights (or else WN would have been profitable and wouldn't need to collect the revenue guarantee).

Unless the other airlines are also collecting subsidies, the only winners here are WN and the too-small pool of WN customers. The losers include the taxpayers and UA, DL and AA.

rsteinmetz70112 Oct 10, 2014 10:54 am

I wonder if there has been a positive impact on fares on the other carriers. That's the usual reason for paying a Low Cost Carrier for service.

If the other carriers have cut their fares to compete with Southwest that could be a positive benefit for flyers and the community. It could even save money in the local economy if the fare cuts saved more than the subsidy cost.

ElmhurstNick Oct 15, 2014 8:16 pm

Wasn't ICT just another place to drop a plane for DAL-MDW 1-stops under Wright? If so, WN would have to be stingy with the cheap fare classes so they could sell the capacity as thru traffic. Now, the thru traffic is just going to take the nonstop.

It's a shame that WN can't figure out a way to profitably operate E-170s.


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