Nose gear collapse on landing at LGA

Old Jul 25, 13, 8:34 pm
  #76  
 
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Even with the data released showing the last 10 degrees of flaps getting deployed at 56 seconds before touchdown, I still am not sold that the PF nosed over the aircraft at between four and zero seconds before touchdown to avoid landing too far down the runway.

I'm a pilot, and although I don't fly jets, from my experience flying as commercial passenger on Southwest hundreds of times, it's not uncommon for the pilots to deploy the last of the flaps/slats about a minute or so before touchdown. At 135/140 knots, at 56 seconds, the aircraft is still about 2.5 miles from the runway. While putting out those last 10 degrees of flaps will create more drag, it will also increase the camber of the wing airfoil, which increases the 'effective' angle of attack. What this does is make the aircraft nose up a bit. Any low-time/high-time pilot knows this and can feel the yoke push back in their hands as the flaps are deployed. You simply push the yoke down to keep the pitch the same as it was before the flaps were deployed.

Two and half miles is plenty of time to stabilize an approach and it appears four seconds before touchdown they were only 32 feet above the runway surface with a pitch attitude of three degrees up. That all sounds fine. The question is, what made the pilot pitch the nose down over those last four seconds? Unexpected burst of wind? PF's hand accidentally slipped off the yoke, he grabbed it, and put too much forward/nose down pressure on it?

What the NTSB hasn't released is how far down the runway the aircraft was at four seconds before touchdown nor it's speed, nor the speeds during those last 56 seconds. Normally at 32 feet, you'd be at least over the threshold of the runway, but more likely 200-800 feet down. Touchdown zone is 1,000 feet. And they should have been about 130-135 knots. If the NTSB shows the aircraft, say, at 32 feet/four seconds 1,500 feet down the runway at, say, 140 knots, yeah, then that would definitely be an 'overrun' situation the result of the unstable approach and even with a 7,000 foot runway, they should have hit the TO/GA button on the throttles and done a go around. 8,000+ feet, they still would have been OK.
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Old Jul 25, 13, 9:17 pm
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Here is another video from inside the plane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMhQoltYAVA

A pilot who witnessed the accident from a nearby taxiway said the plane was a bit high at the threshold followed by ballooning and a hard pushover.

From NTSB we know this (as already posted by somebody else above):

Altitude was 32 feet, airspeed was 134 knots, and pitch attitude was 2 degrees up 4 seconds prior to touchdown. All approximate.

At touchdown, the SWA 737's airspeed was approximately 133 knots and the aircraft was pitched down approximately 3 degrees.

ETA: The pilot witness is anonymous and should be considered only a rumor. However, he did claim the nose touched down at 1500 feet.

Also we do know the distance of the slide and the location where they ended up, so maybe somebody can do the math.

Last edited by Bobster; Jul 25, 13 at 9:37 pm
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Old Jul 25, 13, 9:43 pm
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Thanks, Bob. I hadn't seen where the NTSB had released speed information. That all looks good.

If indeed the plane touched down 1,500 feet down the runway, yeah, that's not ideal, but that's still plenty of room to get the plane stopped even had the PF floated another 1,000 feet of runway while holding the proper nose-up attitude.
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Old Jul 25, 13, 9:52 pm
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Wow, that video says it all, no flare whatsoever.

9 out of 10 times I sit in the exit row window. I wonder if I would have thrown the exit door in that situation upon stopping...
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Old Jul 25, 13, 10:33 pm
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Originally Posted by LegalTender View Post
Not to me.

Looks like routine approach angle with pax ignoring PED rules.
Definitely not a normal pitch for a flare. You really need to watch the video to get the whole picture though. The picture of the nosegear being driven up into the fueselage suggests that it remained in the down-and-locked position even after the impact.


Last edited by Dunbar; Jul 25, 13 at 10:39 pm
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Old Jul 25, 13, 10:39 pm
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Aviation Herald says they ended up about 1150 meters down the runway, and NTSB says the slide was 2175 feet, which seems to be consistent with the report of impact at 1500 feet if you take the curvature of the slide into account.
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Old Jul 26, 13, 1:36 am
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Originally Posted by halls120 View Post
We now know the name of the pilots:

Doug Myfeetin
Screech Enhault

Signed,
KTVU

I thought that station had reported that one of the pilot's name was Kent Landon Wright.

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Old Jul 26, 13, 7:54 am
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Originally Posted by Peter T. View Post
I thought that station had reported that one of the pilot's name was Kent Landon Wright.

I think the best was the fake TV screen, Kent Parker Wright.
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Old Jul 26, 13, 8:32 am
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Originally Posted by Bobster View Post
Here is another video from inside the plane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMhQoltYAVA
Wow, very interesting.

1:00: "This has been the frickin' trip from hell."

1:30: (FA?) "We are not at the gate"
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Old Jul 26, 13, 9:55 am
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Really is. Amazing as to the lack of instructions or direction from the crew as what to do other than the "we are not there yet". A full minute went by from when the plane stopped until that (stupid) announcement.

As I said before, I'm in the exit row 90% of the time, had I smelled smoke I probably would have thrown the hatch. After all, it been drilled into my head that a Flight Attendant will not be here to assist me. I don't recall any part of the spiel saying to wait for an evacuation order (but could be wrong).
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Old Jul 26, 13, 10:27 am
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Originally Posted by joshua362 View Post
Really is. Amazing as to the lack of instructions or direction from the crew as what to do other than the "we are not there yet". A full minute went by from when the plane stopped until that (stupid) announcement.
Trying to think of the appropriate comic spiel for the occasion? Too bad the aft FA didn't think to try the "peanut box down the aisle" trick to lighten things up. "Hey, this works in reverse!"
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Old Jul 26, 13, 12:02 pm
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Originally Posted by joshua362 View Post
Really is. Amazing as to the lack of instructions or direction from the crew as what to do other than the "we are not there yet". A full minute went by from when the plane stopped until that (stupid) announcement.

As I said before, I'm in the exit row 90% of the time, had I smelled smoke I probably would have thrown the hatch. After all, it been drilled into my head that a Flight Attendant will not be here to assist me. I don't recall any part of the spiel saying to wait for an evacuation order (but could be wrong).
I hear ya and wonder if I would have opened the door as well as I usually sit in the emergency exit row on Southwest. Only one time a FA has told me wait for the "evacuate" call from the pilot before opening the door.
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Old Jul 26, 13, 1:18 pm
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Originally Posted by CREN View Post
I hear ya and wonder if I would have opened the door as well as I usually sit in the emergency exit row on Southwest. Only one time a FA has told me wait for the "evacuate" call from the pilot before opening the door.
And how crazy is that if that is SOP? In a crash, are the intercoms, wiring and speakers going to be intact and functional? I was wondering about that concerning the SF crash, I read they were told to not evacuate at first. Amazing communications were functional after two slams into the ground.

On the other hand, in the LGA situation, opening would have been the wrong thing to do, given the proximity to the super hot engines made even worse by the skid. Hosing it down first was smart. I wonder how long it took the pilots to cut the engines and fuel off and if it was done in mid skid...
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Old Jul 27, 13, 5:52 pm
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Originally Posted by Bobster View Post
Here is another video from inside the plane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMhQoltYAVA
Interesting that the YouTube link above has now been "removed by user".
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Old Jul 27, 13, 6:31 pm
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Paranoid about it being traced back to him/her? Perhaps the phone being on is the real culprit that caused the incident.
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