Oct 6, 2013, 5:04 pm
Last edit by: alggag
Southwest has added one row of seats to virtually all its aircraft, increasing the seat count from 137 to 143. The pitch is tighter, the seats are thinner and lower, and passengers taller than 6 feet are finding it uncomfortable.
Only a few older 737-300's and 500's have not been refitted. The 737-800's, were originally equipped with the thinner seats but at a larger pitch which most customers find sufficiently comfortable.
In this thread we discuss the wisdom of this decision, discuss whether it makes sense to switch carriers, commiserate, and celebrate our occasional successes in obtaining the suddenly much rarer seats with extra legroom.
Only a few older 737-300's and 500's have not been refitted. The 737-800's, were originally equipped with the thinner seats but at a larger pitch which most customers find sufficiently comfortable.
In this thread we discuss the wisdom of this decision, discuss whether it makes sense to switch carriers, commiserate, and celebrate our occasional successes in obtaining the suddenly much rarer seats with extra legroom.
[Wiki] Southwest's new "Evolve" interior adds 1 row, claims to preserve knee room
Jan 18, 2012, 10:40 am
#46
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
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The illustration shows the problem. And this was my experience last October FRA-LHR.
Jan 18, 2012, 10:41 am
#47
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
No, it's just economics. Whatever revenue per seat Southwest needs to maintain to meet its numbers, that number will be 4% less with the extra seats. Airlines are always managed to the edge of profitability, and the new seats move that edge in a direction that favors lower prices.
There will never be a 4% jump you can point to, but the end result averaged over a long period will be 4% better than it would have been. Because price needs to track cost over the long run, even if competitive pressures are the dominant pricing influence in the short run. (If you can't make money over many months, you reduce service or pull out of that market.)
In other words, the fact that prices move independently of costs in the short run does not mean that you won't save the full 4% in the long run. That 4%
There will never be a 4% jump you can point to, but the end result averaged over a long period will be 4% better than it would have been. Because price needs to track cost over the long run, even if competitive pressures are the dominant pricing influence in the short run. (If you can't make money over many months, you reduce service or pull out of that market.)
In other words, the fact that prices move independently of costs in the short run does not mean that you won't save the full 4% in the long run. That 4%
Given the multitude of changes implemented in the recent past in attempts to increase profitability, I find it hard to believe that Southwest is spending millions retrofitting interiors so that they can pass on cost savings to customers.
Jan 18, 2012, 10:45 am
#48
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But here's the kicker: with F9 you can drop a few bucks for a seat with more legroom than I personally know what to do with (yet I up to STRETCH on a regular basis). If anyone is complaining about legroom, their problem is solved with a reasonable upcharge (unlike domestic F or, IMO, UA E+). WN's open seating policy effectively bars them from this option, which means that seat pitch will be universally mediocre (but not horrible) in new-config 73Gs and universally okay (but not great) in new 738s.
- Stretch seating which on some of the E-190s is essentially domestic F, and on 319s/320s compares favorably with UA's E+ and JetBlue's regular seats,
- Two checked bags,
- Free TV when available on the plane,
- 50% more miles (for what little they're worth) and
- Full refundability.
Unfortunately for me, F9 is gutting MKE and I'm at a spoke at MDW. But I fly the old Midwest routes at times on MKE-DCA (way cheaper than the legacies on ORD-DCA) and from MCI, and it's a favorable experience to WN. Unfortuately, they can't seem to make any money.... As I said, MKE is getting gutted, and 3x/day MDW-DEN doesn't really help me too much.
Jan 18, 2012, 11:23 am
#49
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If these changes really are a win-win for both he airline and passengers then I'm all for it. Of course, the PR releases will attempt to spin nearly everything in a positive light so I will have to wait until actual chalking up some BIS time before passing judgement.
Jan 18, 2012, 11:55 am
#50
Join Date: Feb 2004
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The metal seats aren't being replaced. The frames are getting closer together and new/revised cushioning / headrest material is being installed.
From an article on page 1 of the thread: "carrier is retaining the B/E Aerospace-manufactured ‘Innovator II’ seat frames on its Southwest 737-700s" Cost works out to $160k per plane, or $26k per new seat added to inventory. Based on some of Gary Kelly's recent cost-cutting comments, it COULD have come down to this or pay/benefit/rate increase cuts.
Here's hoping that they don't streamline this project ahead of the Wifi implementation, and that nobody encounters a 143 seater wthout a wifi bubble.
From an article on page 1 of the thread: "carrier is retaining the B/E Aerospace-manufactured ‘Innovator II’ seat frames on its Southwest 737-700s" Cost works out to $160k per plane, or $26k per new seat added to inventory. Based on some of Gary Kelly's recent cost-cutting comments, it COULD have come down to this or pay/benefit/rate increase cuts.
Here's hoping that they don't streamline this project ahead of the Wifi implementation, and that nobody encounters a 143 seater wthout a wifi bubble.
Last edited by expert7700; Jan 18, 2012 at 12:10 pm
Jan 18, 2012, 12:20 pm
#51
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Hmmm. Doesn't sound as if this will give back a full inch of legroom. In the photos the seat cushions look short. I wonder if they are shorter than the current cushions. If so, that's an optical trick with no matching ergonomic benefit.
Jan 18, 2012, 12:28 pm
#52
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As expert7700 point out, some of the savings may flow to employees rather than customers. I maintain that in the long run competitive forces (vs. other employers for employees and vs. other investment opportunities for stockholders) will cause any savings to flow to customers.
Jan 18, 2012, 12:45 pm
#53
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
Well, the savings are going to flow somewhere, and pricing would have to be higher in the absence of these savings.
As expert7700 point out, some of the savings may flow to employees rather than customers. I maintain that in the long run competitive forces (vs. other employers for employees and vs. other investment opportunities for stockholders) will cause any savings to flow to customers.
As expert7700 point out, some of the savings may flow to employees rather than customers. I maintain that in the long run competitive forces (vs. other employers for employees and vs. other investment opportunities for stockholders) will cause any savings to flow to customers.
Jan 18, 2012, 1:31 pm
#54
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
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Plus, overseas flying adds complexity and cost.
Jan 18, 2012, 1:38 pm
#55
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I guess the other possibility is that the savings flow to the toilet, merely delaying the day Southwest files Chapter 11. American Airlines employees certainly feel that way about their pay concessions in earlier years.
Jan 18, 2012, 3:10 pm
#56
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Every time WN enters a new market the "our city is special and won't fly WN" guys come on, meanwhile WN carries more passengers
Last edited by ftnoob; Jul 4, 2012 at 12:38 pm Reason: fix markup
Jan 18, 2012, 3:16 pm
#57
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: LAX
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I flew on the new 738 AA Y seats from LAX-DFW and found them to be more comfortable than WN's seats. According seat expert AA's 738's have 31-32" of pitch. I've actually found that newer seat are almost always more comfortable than older designs. I flew an old AA 757 in Y back from DFW-LAX (it had CRT monitors for IFE) and the seats were vastly inferior in the comfort department.
Jan 18, 2012, 3:35 pm
#58
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,502
This has happened before? Where else have they launched a new market with 202 daily operations, equivalent to their largest base (Las Vegas)? Maybe WN will fill the flights with instant converts, but it's never been tried. Not claiming Atlanta is special; just a big gulp.
Jan 18, 2012, 5:28 pm
#59
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If the seats were as far apart as they are advertising, why would a change in recline be required?
And with 6 seats additional capacity and 635 pounds saved by the new design, how much body weight would 6 additional humans have to have to achieve the cost savings they mention...106 pounds or so?
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If these are like the seats Lufthansa recently installed, pitch was so tight the only way you could retrieve your carry on from under the seat in front of you is to basically lay your head in your neighbor's lap.
And with 6 seats additional capacity and 635 pounds saved by the new design, how much body weight would 6 additional humans have to have to achieve the cost savings they mention...106 pounds or so?
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If these are like the seats Lufthansa recently installed, pitch was so tight the only way you could retrieve your carry on from under the seat in front of you is to basically lay your head in your neighbor's lap.
That would save another xxx lbs.
Jan 18, 2012, 6:00 pm
#60
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They'll end up a holiday leisure airline again as more of us go back to legacy's for 1st class, and other perks.