johnslloyd

earned their money late last night in ABQ. I was on Flt 2633 LAS-ABQ which was late and arrived about 11:30. ABQ winds were in the 40-50 mph range, swirling and gusting and I learned later there had been microbursts in the area. The plane was getting thrown all over the place on late final & I was as concerned as I've ever been on a 737. As a private pilot myself, this approach was deteriorating by the second. Captain initiated a late go-around and the 2nd time was better, if still hairy, and got us down. Once on the ground, Captain announced that the First Officer had made the landing. Runway 8-26 at ABQ (we were on 8) is one of the longest and widest anywhere and the 737 used a lot more of it than normal. That was one really good, smart call to initiate the go-around. Once in the terminal I learned that at least one other SW flight (coming from DEN) had also done a go-around at about the same time.

texashoser

Not sure about other airlines, but all WN FO's have a 737 type rating. It's a WN requirement before getting hired.

Technically, an FO on any big jet would only have to have a multi-engine commercial instrument certificate to be qualified to sit in the right seat.

Steve M

Even if the above is true, are you claiming that there are FO's flying for any commercial airline in the US that are not type rated for the aircraft they're flying?

texashoser

My first sentence in my first reply was 'Not sure about other airlines..." Should have really said major airlines. I know for a fact many regional and commuter airline FO's don't have type ratings or ATP certificates.

Legally, no, a co-pilot or FO under FAA part 121 operations (the rules airlines operate under) is not required to hold a type rating for the aircraft they are flying - only the captain (pilot in command) does. Nor does the FO have to have an ATP (Airline Transport Pilot) rating (again, the captain does, of course).

Keep in mind that a type rating is only required for the following aircraft:

• large aircraft (12,500 pounds maximum takeoff weight)
• turbojet-powered aircraft; and/or
• other aircraft specified by the administrator through aircraft type certificate procedures.

Turbojet in the above case means jet, not turbo-prop.

With that said, it appears Congress last year did instruct the FAA to require all pilots operating under part 121, including FO's, to have an ATP certificate which can only be obtained with at least 1,500 of flight time (simulator time included). To obtain a commercial, multi-engine instrument rating requires only a minimum of 250 hours.

While doubtful that there are many major airline FO's without an ATP, there are probably a few and probably a few more with with FO's without a type rating. However, those numbers are likely low because the vast majority of airline new-hires are former military and captains from regional carriers (who already have an ATP and at least a type rating for the aircraft they were flying in the commuter ranks).

But, yes, new-hire requirements for regionals have been abysmally low lately because the majors aren't hiring. This means captains and FO's at regionals get stuck and quit because the pay is terrible. Many regionals start their FO's at $20-25k per year.

The point of my reply, though, is that even though the WN co-pilot landed the plane, that pilot is ATP-rated with a 737 type rating and has a minimum of 2,500 hours, 1,000 of which must be in turbine-powered (including both turbojet and turbo-prop) aircraft. At least those were the WN minimums for new-hires last time I checked...

EDIT: The WN requirements have not changed, but you can be hired with 1,500 hours total time as long as that 1,500 was all in turbine-powered aircraft. Here's the link to WN pilot requirements for those interested:

http://www.southwest.com/html/about-...ns/pilots.html

Steve M

Thanks for your detailed response. I was mainly referring to pilots for major carriers, such as would be flying 737's or larger. Despite minimum regulations to the contrary, I'd be surprised to find that any FO at such a carrier is flying revenue flights without both an ATP and a type rating for the aircraft they're flying.

It may be true that some carriers don't have a type rating requirement for hire, but in such a case, the pilots would be put through type rating class internally before they entered revenue service. If this is actually happening and someone can cite an example, then I will have learned something.

HRDiva

Most airlines do not type the FO. Spirit does, as does SWA. It makes sense when the fleet is a single aircraft fleet. Although some don't want to do it because they don't want to incur the expense, only to have the pilot jump ship to another airline with it.

The legacies (Delta, AA, etc) don't. Typing the FO would mean a longer sim session, less leniency, check ride with a DE or a Fed. But, given that the FO may never see the left seat of that aircraft in a multiple aircraft fleet, it doesn't make good business sense. Having a type means nothing if it's not current. So, for example, it wouldn't make sense for Delta to type a new hire on the 757/767 ER (which a new hire could hold as an FO) when they may never get that aircraft when they upgrade to Captain years and years and years later on the MD-88. Even if they hung around long enough to finally be senior enough to get to the left seat of the 757/767 ER (assuming that plane is still around), they'd have to be re-typed.