SWA to buy AIRTRAN
Sep 29, 2010, 8:42 pm
#226
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For those hungry for even more paralysis of analysis on this merger, this article is pretty comprehensive.
1) I personally love open seating and I think a lot other people do as well. To say almost no one likes it is incorrect.
2) The article suggests that getting rid of all the fees will cost SWA $210 million. Just like the rest of the fee charging airlines, the author fails to consider the additional ticket revenue that is generated by not having fees. Right now, there are some people that weigh Air Tran vs. Delta. With all the fees, they figure that the two airlines are pretty much the same, so might as well fly Delta because you can earn miles that can be used to Europe. But, without all the fees, SWA is going to be significantly cheaper than Delta, so at least some people will give SWA a try.
This seems so obvious to me, yet no one in the airline industry seems to get this, except the folks at SWA!
3) Loss of business and frequent travelers. It may be true that a few people that are always getting upgraded on Air Tran will jump ship and go over to Delta. But, for those that are only getting upgraded once in a while, I'd suggest that most of them are going to stay with SWA. The number of people lost is not as great as the author implies.
4) Its a win for Delta? Sure, they are going to pick up some pax that are willing to pay to fly first class. But they are going to lose a lot of people who fly coach and don't care which airline they fly on, as long as it is the lowest cost after factoring in everything, including bag fees and change fees. Most people can add, and if you can add, you can pretty well factor in the bag fees. The change fee might be a bit more complex as it requires multiplication and probability, but on balance, people factor that in as well.
5) I think getting into Atlanta, a market that SWA has be unable to get into using traditional growth methods, combined with everything else SWA is getting in the deal, easily justifies the price.
Sep 29, 2010, 9:14 pm
#227
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Open seating is 80% of why I fly WN. I LUV it.
The other 20% of why I fly them is that they have a gazillion flights between the city pairs I most often fly.
I would also have given WN some kudos for their low fares and/or goofy and fun FA's but, unfortunately, I haven't noticed either lately.
Last edited by Cholula; Sep 30, 2010 at 6:25 am Reason: typo
Sep 29, 2010, 10:18 pm
#228
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I would also have give WN some kudos for their low fares and/or goofy and fun FA's but, unfortunately, I haven't noticed either lately.
Low fares, indeed not. If you book last minute as I nearly always do, then WN are about equivalent to everyone else, especially intra CA.
Goofy/fun FAs depend on the flight. TBH, I sometimes like this and sometimes don't. In a bizarre twist, it seems that entertainer FAs always seem to be on IROPS blighted flights right now in my little world. WX may not be WN's fault, but if I'm about to miss a connection in MDW due to a 2 hour delay, I could really do without the singing!
Cheers,
Paul.
Low fares, indeed not. If you book last minute as I nearly always do, then WN are about equivalent to everyone else, especially intra CA.
Goofy/fun FAs depend on the flight. TBH, I sometimes like this and sometimes don't. In a bizarre twist, it seems that entertainer FAs always seem to be on IROPS blighted flights right now in my little world. WX may not be WN's fault, but if I'm about to miss a connection in MDW due to a 2 hour delay, I could really do without the singing!
Cheers,
Paul.
Sep 29, 2010, 10:47 pm
#229
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Sep 29, 2010, 10:53 pm
#230
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Well aware of that NSX- I remember when WN were NOT seriously in this market. the $300 RT walk up that pisses me off now was the regular legacy fare back then- even weeks in advance!
Sep 30, 2010, 6:10 am
#231
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Personally for me, the Bags Fly Free deal doesn't make up for lack of those "I can't believe I can actually fly there for so little money!!" fares I remember back when.
Sep 30, 2010, 6:38 am
#232
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from the WSJ:
Southwest Alters Plan
AirTran Deal Injects Risk, Opens Way to Big, New Markets
Excerpt:
Southwest Alters Plan
AirTran Deal Injects Risk, Opens Way to Big, New Markets
Excerpt:
Southwest, which first floated the possibility of a takeover to AirTran in April, says it isn't worried and that management is prepared. "We're very confident about our ability to pull this off," Gary Kelly, Southwest's chief executive, said on Monday.
Was this idea really floated in April? Where?
The Southwest-AirTran deal was announced less than a week before Continental Airlines and United Airlines were expected to close their merger, creating the world's biggest carrier. As part of the concessions needed to gain regulatory approval for that tieup, Continental ceded landing slots to Southwest at Newark, giving Southwest its first flights at the capacity-constrained New Jersey airport. The Continental-United combination will push that airline ahead of Delta, which claimed the title of biggest only two years ago by acquiring Northwest. Kelly denies that the consolidation movement played much of a role in his decision to call AirTran Chairman and CEO Robert L. Fornaro last spring to broach the topic of a deal.
Sep 30, 2010, 8:08 am
#233
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But Southwest still includes a free option to cancel or change, something the other guys charge for. On a $49 fee, change fees make the purchase completely non-refundable, non-changeable.
Sep 30, 2010, 8:58 am
#234
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When travelling with legacies, I often 'make do' to avoid change fees, or jump on a waitlist. With WN, I can simply switch to a different flight at no penalty.
To a FF, getting into SNA at 12:00PM rather than 3:45PM if a meeting finishes early can make a hell of a difference to ones quality of life. You can usually do this with legacies too, but hanging around on a waitlist is seriously unfun.
Cheers,
Paul.
Sep 30, 2010, 8:59 am
#235
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$49 ... heck, I had to 'throw away' a $130 ticket this week on AA ... I had a one-day trip to Des Plaines (five minutes from ORD) and I certainly could not justify flying into MDW for a meeting that is basically at ORD.
Sep 30, 2010, 9:53 am
#236
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How was ground handling done for FL at EYW at the rest of the "AllegianTran" stations? I would like to see WN keep service to those places but up to this point it was only with 8x daily 737 quota and with their own personnel (this I would like to see maintained). Does WN have any precedence on maintaining a crew that is part time only but otherwise still mainline WN workers? Any union stance on that issue? I would hate, hate, hate to see WN go on that slippery slope of contracting out ground services at the stations that can't support a full shift of their own people.
Sep 30, 2010, 10:16 am
#237
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And then when they figure out how many zillions of DL Medallions live in ATL, slurping up all the upgrades, they may well jump ship again.
Sep 30, 2010, 10:31 am
#238
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Sep 30, 2010, 11:01 am
#239
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Some interesting insight from Bloomberg Businessweek:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...8022740823.htm
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...8022740823.htm
Sep 30, 2010, 1:58 pm
#240
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For the people that were talking about wifi...I meant to put IFE in there. My bad.
First of all, you have no authority to announce that. Second, aren't those 733's old?
Look at DL/NW. They have a fleet of over 1,100 and most of them (the D93s, D94s, and some 757s) got repainted. WN is about half of that IIRC.
I feel a sense of accomplishment of not flying WN. Never happening...
DL didn't get a new look because it was already in the process of transitioning into a new look. The current theme was introduced less than a year before the NW merger was.
My definition is how they treat passengers, not employees.
+1
The open seating system is another negative for me. Gotta have assigned seating.
This is B.S.
WN's wi-fi is satellite based & in the long run technically superior to others (e.g. Delta). WN is also upgrading all of their older 737-300s to glass cockpits and as far as i know is the only major U.S. airline that is 100% committed to RNP.
And it really doesn't matter much to me if a 16-year-old has never flown WN.
WN's wi-fi is satellite based & in the long run technically superior to others (e.g. Delta). WN is also upgrading all of their older 737-300s to glass cockpits and as far as i know is the only major U.S. airline that is 100% committed to RNP.
And it really doesn't matter much to me if a 16-year-old has never flown WN.
Your loss. I flown DL and WN often (currently have over 250K miles in the bank on SkyMiles). Overall, I've had far better flying experiences on WN than on DL. One day, you might want to give WN a try.
But how would you know? By your own admission, you have only flown DL. You haven't flown WN, FL, or B6. How can you make educated comments that WN is cheapskate and B6 is more modern not having flown either?
BTW, cheapskate airlines are those who charge for checked baggage.
So is DL changing their look after their merger in NW? Is DL changing their name too?
But how would you know? By your own admission, you have only flown DL. You haven't flown WN, FL, or B6. How can you make educated comments that WN is cheapskate and B6 is more modern not having flown either?
BTW, cheapskate airlines are those who charge for checked baggage.
So is DL changing their look after their merger in NW? Is DL changing their name too?
DL didn't get a new look because it was already in the process of transitioning into a new look. The current theme was introduced less than a year before the NW merger was.
WN is installing Wifi on all their aircraft. Of course, AirTran already has Wifi on all its aircraft, why is it taking Southwest longer? Because WN did not think that the AirCell GoGo option that is based on the decades old GTE Airfone network is a good long-term solution, instead they're going with a more expensive system designed in the 21st century using satellites.
Ah, my favorite. The I've never flown WN but I know all there is to know about their service which is why I will continue to never fly on WN type. 
WN IS in the process of installing wifi.
My definition of a "cheapskate" airline is one that treats their employees like garbage and pays them pathetic wages.
WN IS in the process of installing wifi.
My definition of a "cheapskate" airline is one that treats their employees like garbage and pays them pathetic wages.
Although I spend most of my time on legacy carriers, certainly, I have nothing against the low-cost approach per se. And I wouldn't say that I will never fly WN. I will, however, say that I will never fly them as long as it remains impossible to make an advance seat reservation. I have no problem with the low-cost carriers (for example, Vueling in Europe) who will charge extra to make a seat assignment or for specific desireable seats, but I absolutely despise the idea of rushing onto a plane (no matter how well organized the cattle chute) to quick grab a seat before someone else gets it (and of course having to be sure to be lined up at the gate at the very start of boarding to have any chance of an acceptable seat).
So, I see it as VERY unfortunate if Southwest plans on making AirTran change to its no-seat-assignment approach. In that case, rather than opening up new routes so that I might try Southwest, the merger will simply eliminate AirTran from my list of options.
So, I see it as VERY unfortunate if Southwest plans on making AirTran change to its no-seat-assignment approach. In that case, rather than opening up new routes so that I might try Southwest, the merger will simply eliminate AirTran from my list of options.