West Coast 1/22
Jan 21, 2010, 10:00 pm
#1
Original Poster
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Location: San Francisco/Bangkok
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Posts: 1,409
West Coast 1/22
Since you cant check flight status for tomorrow yet
how do you know if your flight is still operating on west coast?
With so many planes out of sequence have they repositioned aircraft for overnight or are they still trying to figure this out?
k
how do you know if your flight is still operating on west coast?
With so many planes out of sequence have they repositioned aircraft for overnight or are they still trying to figure this out?
k
Jan 22, 2010, 3:00 pm
#3
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MCO
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Posts: 555
SWABrian maybe you can shed some light on this,
WN 317 DEN to SFO, we are delayed 1 hour 15 minutes, in bound aircraft MDW SFO arrived on time, is at the gate.
The gate agent told me "The airport put us on a ground stop," I asked why and she said "maybe tarmac construction, they are delaying certain flights, you should be lucky your flight is not cancelled"
Yes that is true, a cancellation would not be good, however is DEN delaying WN flights? I saw hardly any UA delays on the board, is this a new issue with DEN and WN?
Sorry for any typos, on a mobile device
WN 317 DEN to SFO, we are delayed 1 hour 15 minutes, in bound aircraft MDW SFO arrived on time, is at the gate.
The gate agent told me "The airport put us on a ground stop," I asked why and she said "maybe tarmac construction, they are delaying certain flights, you should be lucky your flight is not cancelled"
Yes that is true, a cancellation would not be good, however is DEN delaying WN flights? I saw hardly any UA delays on the board, is this a new issue with DEN and WN?
Sorry for any typos, on a mobile device
Jan 22, 2010, 3:02 pm
#4
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 254
SWABrian maybe you can shed some light on this,
WN 317 DEN to SFO, we are delayed 1 hour 15 minutes, in bound aircraft MDW SFO arrived on time, is at the gate.
The gate agent told me "The airport put us on a ground stop," I asked why and she said "maybe tarmac construction, they are delaying certain flights, you should be lucky your flight is not cancelled"
Yes that is true, a cancellation would not be good, however is DEN delaying WN flights? I saw hardly any UA delays on the board, is this a new issue with DEN and WN?
Sorry for any typos, on a mobile device
WN 317 DEN to SFO, we are delayed 1 hour 15 minutes, in bound aircraft MDW SFO arrived on time, is at the gate.
The gate agent told me "The airport put us on a ground stop," I asked why and she said "maybe tarmac construction, they are delaying certain flights, you should be lucky your flight is not cancelled"
Yes that is true, a cancellation would not be good, however is DEN delaying WN flights? I saw hardly any UA delays on the board, is this a new issue with DEN and WN?
Sorry for any typos, on a mobile device
Jan 22, 2010, 3:15 pm
#5
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MCO
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Posts: 555
Yes that makes sense fro SFO with weather, I had asked the agent if the ground stop was in SFO and she said No, it was in DEN, didn't make sense, she added they had cancelled flights due to the tarmac construction in DEN on 1/21.
Jan 22, 2010, 3:33 pm
#6
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,028
SWABrian maybe you can shed some light on this,
WN 317 DEN to SFO, we are delayed 1 hour 15 minutes, in bound aircraft MDW SFO arrived on time, is at the gate.
The gate agent told me "The airport put us on a ground stop," I asked why and she said "maybe tarmac construction, they are delaying certain flights, you should be lucky your flight is not cancelled"
Yes that is true, a cancellation would not be good, however is DEN delaying WN flights? I saw hardly any UA delays on the board, is this a new issue with DEN and WN?
Sorry for any typos, on a mobile device
WN 317 DEN to SFO, we are delayed 1 hour 15 minutes, in bound aircraft MDW SFO arrived on time, is at the gate.
The gate agent told me "The airport put us on a ground stop," I asked why and she said "maybe tarmac construction, they are delaying certain flights, you should be lucky your flight is not cancelled"
Yes that is true, a cancellation would not be good, however is DEN delaying WN flights? I saw hardly any UA delays on the board, is this a new issue with DEN and WN?
Sorry for any typos, on a mobile device
SFO was opened back in 1927, when the biggest thing flying were DC-3s, and aircraft wingspans the sizes of 747s and A380s weren't even a dream. The result was an airport that was laid out with *parallel* runways that have centerlines that are only 750 feet apart. Present-day, it's no problem to use runway 28L and 28R at the same time, but the weather has to be good enough that aircraft can see one another all the way from the bridge to the airport. When the airport is in this mode (visual approaches, or "VAPs" as we call them) the airport can accept about 60 aircraft per hour. The flip side of that is that when the weather (lowered cloud ceilings and/or visibilities) come in that preclude the use of VAPs to 28L *and* 28R, ATC has to use ILS approaches. Although both 28L and 28R each have their own ILS system, use of both of them in cruddy weather requires 2,500 feet minimum separation between the runway centerlines, which, of course, SFO doesn't have. The end result is that that 60-rate drops to about a 30-rate, and it's the proverbial 10 pounds into a 5 pound bag, i.e. delays.
If one is in the air when the 60-to-30 rate drops, there will be airborne holding patterns, but if you've not yet departed XYZ-SFO, you'll get a delay in the form of a "wheels-up" time. ATC might only delay flights destined to SFO from the adjacent ATC centers like LA, SEA, and SLC. ATC might have to go further out from OAK center and delay flights from ABQ, DEN, or MSP centers. They might have to delay flights from all US centers. Lots of variables here.
One of the things that airlines have the ability to do when there's such a delay situation is make selective cancellations and then re-use the freed-up "slot" to move-up other delayed flights to mitigate the overall extent of the delays. What some other airlines do is get the flights of their commuter canceled, and then re-use the slots for the larger aircraft. As a result, their delays might be somewhat less than those airlines that don't have a commuter partner.
Here's what the ATC message affecting 317 today is..
ATCSCC Advisory
ATCSCC ADVZY 050 SFO/ZOA 01/22/2010 CDM GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1645Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 22/1700Z - 23/0559Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 22/1700Z - 23/0559Z
PROGRAM RATE: 27/27/27/27/27/27/27/27/27/30/40/45/45
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (MANUAL) ZAB ZSE ZFW ZKC ZME ZTL ZOA ZLC ZLA ZAU ZMP ZDV ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZBW ZOB ZDC ZNY
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYEG CYVR CYYC CYYJ CYLW
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZOA
MAXIMUM DELAY: 216
AVERAGE DELAY: 81
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / LOW CEILINGS
COMMENTS: SFO SE PLAN AAR=27
As you can see, the current delay program affects departures in all of the US, including Denver center(ZDV). The rate is 27, and the average delays are expressed in minutes.
Last edited by OPNLguy; Jan 22, 2010 at 4:31 pm Reason: Typo
Jan 22, 2010, 4:03 pm
#7
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MCO
Programs: DL 1.3MM/SM, Lifetime Marriott Platinum
Posts: 555
I'll field this one Brian...
SFO was opened back in 1927, when the biggest thing flying were DC-3s, and aircraft wingspans the sizes of 747s and A380s weren't even a dream. The result was an airport that was laid out with *parallel* runways that have centerlines that are only 750 feet apart. Present-day, it's no problem to use runway 28L and 28R at the same time, but the weather was to be good enough that aircraft can see one another all the way from the bridge to the airport. When the airport is in this mode (visual approaches, or "VAPs" as we call them) the airport can accept about 60 aircraft per hour. The flip side of that is that when the weather (lowered cloud ceilings and/or visibilities) come in that preclude the use of VAPs to 28L *and* 28R, ATC has to use ILS approaches. Although both 28L and 28R each have their own ILS system, use of both of them in cruddy weather requires 2,500 feet minimum separation between the runway centerlines, which, of course, SFO doesn't have. The end result is that that 60-rate drops to about a 30-rate, and it's the proverbial 10 pounds into a 5 pound bag, i.e. delays.
If one is in the air when the 60-to-30 rate drops, there will be airborne holding patterns, but if you've not yet departed XYZ-SFO, you'll get a delay in the form of a "wheels-up" time. ATC might only delay flights destined to SFO from the adjacent ATC centers like LA, SEA, and SLC. ATC might have to go further out from OAK center and delay flights from ABQ, DEN, or MSP centers. They might have to delay flights from all US centers. Lots of variables here.
One of the thing that airlines have the ability to do when there's such a delay situation is make selective cancellations and then re-use the freed-up "slot" to move-up other delayed flights to mitigate the overall extent of the delays. What some other airlines do is get the flights of their commuter canceled, and then re-use the slots for the larger aircraft. As a result, their delays might be somewhat less than those airlines that don't have a commuter partner.
Here's what the ATC message affecting 317 today is..
ATCSCC Advisory
ATCSCC ADVZY 050 SFO/ZOA 01/22/2010 CDM GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1645Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 22/1700Z - 23/0559Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 22/1700Z - 23/0559Z
PROGRAM RATE: 27/27/27/27/27/27/27/27/27/30/40/45/45
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (MANUAL) ZAB ZSE ZFW ZKC ZME ZTL ZOA ZLC ZLA ZAU ZMP ZDV ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZBW ZOB ZDC ZNY
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYEG CYVR CYYC CYYJ CYLW
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZOA
MAXIMUM DELAY: 216
AVERAGE DELAY: 81
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / LOW CEILINGS
COMMENTS: SFO SE PLAN AAR=27
As you can see, the current delay program affects departures in all of the US, including Denver center(ZDV). The rate is 27, and the average delays are expressed in minutes.
SFO was opened back in 1927, when the biggest thing flying were DC-3s, and aircraft wingspans the sizes of 747s and A380s weren't even a dream. The result was an airport that was laid out with *parallel* runways that have centerlines that are only 750 feet apart. Present-day, it's no problem to use runway 28L and 28R at the same time, but the weather was to be good enough that aircraft can see one another all the way from the bridge to the airport. When the airport is in this mode (visual approaches, or "VAPs" as we call them) the airport can accept about 60 aircraft per hour. The flip side of that is that when the weather (lowered cloud ceilings and/or visibilities) come in that preclude the use of VAPs to 28L *and* 28R, ATC has to use ILS approaches. Although both 28L and 28R each have their own ILS system, use of both of them in cruddy weather requires 2,500 feet minimum separation between the runway centerlines, which, of course, SFO doesn't have. The end result is that that 60-rate drops to about a 30-rate, and it's the proverbial 10 pounds into a 5 pound bag, i.e. delays.
If one is in the air when the 60-to-30 rate drops, there will be airborne holding patterns, but if you've not yet departed XYZ-SFO, you'll get a delay in the form of a "wheels-up" time. ATC might only delay flights destined to SFO from the adjacent ATC centers like LA, SEA, and SLC. ATC might have to go further out from OAK center and delay flights from ABQ, DEN, or MSP centers. They might have to delay flights from all US centers. Lots of variables here.
One of the thing that airlines have the ability to do when there's such a delay situation is make selective cancellations and then re-use the freed-up "slot" to move-up other delayed flights to mitigate the overall extent of the delays. What some other airlines do is get the flights of their commuter canceled, and then re-use the slots for the larger aircraft. As a result, their delays might be somewhat less than those airlines that don't have a commuter partner.
Here's what the ATC message affecting 317 today is..
ATCSCC Advisory
ATCSCC ADVZY 050 SFO/ZOA 01/22/2010 CDM GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1645Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 22/1700Z - 23/0559Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 22/1700Z - 23/0559Z
PROGRAM RATE: 27/27/27/27/27/27/27/27/27/30/40/45/45
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (MANUAL) ZAB ZSE ZFW ZKC ZME ZTL ZOA ZLC ZLA ZAU ZMP ZDV ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZBW ZOB ZDC ZNY
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYEG CYVR CYYC CYYJ CYLW
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZOA
MAXIMUM DELAY: 216
AVERAGE DELAY: 81
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / LOW CEILINGS
COMMENTS: SFO SE PLAN AAR=27
As you can see, the current delay program affects departures in all of the US, including Denver center(ZDV). The rate is 27, and the average delays are expressed in minutes.
Jan 22, 2010, 5:04 pm
#9
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Location: TUS/PDX
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Posts: 5,798
The parallel runway configuration didn't appear until the 1940s or 1950s. SFO missed their opportunity to move the outer runway in the 60s when they lengthened them, but I digress.
Jan 22, 2010, 6:55 pm
#10
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,028
Jan 22, 2010, 7:54 pm
#12
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MCO
Programs: DL 1.3MM/SM, Lifetime Marriott Platinum
Posts: 555
I'll field this one Brian...
Here's what the ATC message affecting 317 today is..
ATCSCC Advisory
ATCSCC ADVZY 050 SFO/ZOA 01/22/2010 CDM GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1645Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 22/1700Z - 23/0559Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 22/1700Z - 23/0559Z
PROGRAM RATE: 27/27/27/27/27/27/27/27/27/30/40/45/45
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (MANUAL) ZAB ZSE ZFW ZKC ZME ZTL ZOA ZLC ZLA ZAU ZMP ZDV ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZBW ZOB ZDC ZNY
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYEG CYVR CYYC CYYJ CYLW
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZOA
MAXIMUM DELAY: 216
AVERAGE DELAY: 81
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / LOW CEILINGS
COMMENTS: SFO SE PLAN AAR=27
As you can see, the current delay program affects departures in all of the US, including Denver center(ZDV). The rate is 27, and the average delays are expressed in minutes.
Here's what the ATC message affecting 317 today is..
ATCSCC Advisory
ATCSCC ADVZY 050 SFO/ZOA 01/22/2010 CDM GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1645Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 22/1700Z - 23/0559Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 22/1700Z - 23/0559Z
PROGRAM RATE: 27/27/27/27/27/27/27/27/27/30/40/45/45
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (MANUAL) ZAB ZSE ZFW ZKC ZME ZTL ZOA ZLC ZLA ZAU ZMP ZDV ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZBW ZOB ZDC ZNY
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYEG CYVR CYYC CYYJ CYLW
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZOA
MAXIMUM DELAY: 216
AVERAGE DELAY: 81
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / LOW CEILINGS
COMMENTS: SFO SE PLAN AAR=27
As you can see, the current delay program affects departures in all of the US, including Denver center(ZDV). The rate is 27, and the average delays are expressed in minutes.
Thank You for your research, the Captain informed us that this was indeed the case. Thanks for clearing up the misinformation given by the gate agent about our delay being due to "tarmac construction"
Jan 22, 2010, 8:20 pm
#13
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,028
As far as the gate agent is concerned, I suspect they might have been working a lot of MSP flights of late, as that airport does have taxiway construction, and it slows down that airport rate-wise such that ATC often imposes similar delays for traffic headed there, especially in cruddy weather. Perhaps the agent confused the two airports. SFO is the one without taxiway construction, and delays there are capacity-related as I outlined earlier. A gate agent probably wouldn't know of SFO's runway-related operational issues, nor would I expect them to.
As a final note, ATC can (and does) impose similar restrictions at almost any airport when the traffic demand exceeds the capability of the destination airport, or the enroute airspace it takes to get there. We'll be seeing many examples of that just as soon as thunderstorm season starts. ATC's management of raffic is, out of necessity, much like a metered freeway on-ramp, i.e. they're only going to allow what traffic into the system that they can safely handle under the conditions--conditions that change with the weather. Unlike cars that can come to stop and be bumper-to-bumper, aircraft have to keep moving and remain separated, so when something up ahead slows down or even stops the flow, everything else has to slowdown or stop.
Cheers...
Jan 25, 2010, 3:35 pm
#15
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Programs: AC SE100K, F9 100k, NK Gold, UA *S, Hyatt Glob, Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 5,187
Yesterday I came across a relative's life insurance policy purchased in 1941. It unfolded into an elegant packet with with a copy of the original application. One of the 5 or 6 high risk/elimination questions (right up there with a few questions about disease history) was "Do you fly or have any plans to fly 20 or more hours in any one year on commercial scheduled airline service?"