judolphin

Thank you for reducing my 4000 words into about 50

pinniped

There's a bit of irony here: if you're locked into a route on which your only choice is a legacy carrier, and you do not have elite status, then the RJ is your friend because there are no middle seats.

F on the RJ varies widely by the operating airline. I don't have all of the UX operators memorized by route or anything, but I've had decent F experiences on RJ's to/from DEN and IAD. A couple beers and some peanuts...roughly when I'd have on WN or in mainline UA F. The bigger RJ's like the E-170 have more of a mainline feel than an RJ feel to begin with. Thankfully I don't fly many of the tiny RJ's that have no F cabin at all.

As for people who completely swear off ever using WN, I could kind of see the logic if their total alliance travel puts them right at an elite threshold. If I knew I was going to struggle to hit 1P or 1K in a given year, then I'd be hesitant to peel off short trips to any country's or region's local (non-alliance) carrier. I'd bite the bullet and fly those short hops in my preferred alliance for the greater good of the tier status.

But the problem is that people seem to write off certain carriers based on faulty information, urban myth, or simply very outdated information. I had a bad Ryanair experience in 1995, but if the opportunity presented itself I'd probably give 'em another shot.

MrMan

Southwest does not use outside catering. They have their own trucks and storage at airport sites. Caterers also mop and clean galleys/restrooms between each flight

judolphin

People who run businesses often inflate "cost structure" to pad their own wallets. The more they do so, the less they have for things like, paying employees fair wages, going the extra mile in customer service... Look at the big airlines' CEO salaries; there's an almost exact inverse relationship to customer satisfaction.

Bottom line: I think the people in charge are getting exactly what they want.

joshua362

What a great thesis OP! I never heard of the ultimatum game before but I practice exactly that in my real life dealings with various vendors, especially airlines, hotels and rental car companies. Fair or nothing for us both and the players are few and far in between.

I too do some ridiculous routings to stay loyal to WN although its hard of late, such as tomorrow's MCI-TPA-ISP and back in 4 days for some $700. Sadly, this is what is offered by actual scheduling in lieu of the more convenient and frequent routings I've become used to in the last 10 years.

In fact, twice lately, WN pilots have taken to joking over the intercom "this plane is going from XX to YY and then ZZ. And if you are going with us to ZZ, you need to find a better travel agent!" And I'm the clown in the back doing exactly that on a published routing.

My biggest fear is how long will they keep this "fairness" up before succumbing to the follow the crowd mentality here in the US? Hopefully never!

JSteele

Great post OP. As a DEN and former ATL based traveler I was envious of WN service for years. Now that DEN is a major hub/focus city/whatever, I am thrilled with their service.

As a family of three, we find ourselves taking trips we never would have bothered with on UA or even Frontier. You can paint animals on the tail all day, but Frontier has the same fee and penalty structure as the majors.

I just can't understand all of the change fees. It is like the legacies want to discourage you from giving them money. With WN, I am happy to buy a ticket on a whim, knowing that I can change it if plans fall through. It is win-win (WN-WN?) as I am more free to open my wallet and they have captured my future business every time they issue me a credit.

It is bizarre trying to explain the legacy's fee structure to foreigners. I tell people "They lost market share and didn't make a profit, but they are making millions in fees, so they think they are brilliant. In the mean time WN avoids fees and makes profits while increasing market share" The consensus is that the legacy's management are truly idiots.

Unfortunately WN doesn't go everywhere. I just can't see turning my DEN-ATL run into DEN-XXX-BHM plus a rental car and 2.5 hour drive. That turns a 3 hour flight into an all day ordeal. 4 carriers serve it non-stop, FL being the best.

Until they service ATL, the busiest airport in the world and one of the top travel markets in the US, I will always refer to WN as "The best airline to fly to every city not named Atlanta"

WN TO ATL IN 2010!

elhs

Great Post!!
I use to be completely loyal to USAir (while living in the Pittsburgh area). And actually turned my nose at SW when they started flying in/out of PGH. I have since moved out the area, and have been flying SW for the past two years. And love it!! I recently had no choice but to fly USAir, and the whole experience really made me understand the downright horrible service offered by the 'legacy' carriers. I too find myself going out of my way to fly SW. ^

judolphin

Ha! I'm taking a two-stop "direct" flight to MHT myself. Never done that before. We'll see if the crew has anything to say about it.

You can never say never, but WN's corporate culture really is different from most companies its size. Given the money they've thrown at marketing their "no fees" structure, it's tough to see them changing that in the very near future.

When I was younger and even more dumb, tactless and rude than I am now (esp. as a college student) I would actually in my anger fight with DL agents about having to pay a change fee, telling them, "Southwest doesn't charge one, why do you have to?" But their response was, "Southwest doesn't fly overseas." Doesn't really follow.

And yes, it was pointless and rude of me to argue with the poor call center agents, it wasn't the proper venue to complain. This was years ago.

You gotta have your principles, but no need to cut off your nose to spite your face.

I think ORD and ATL are the two airports we'll never see WN serve Although I'd have said the same about LGA a couple years ago. As a DL GM based in JAX I'm with you... I'd never have to pay $300 RT with advance purchase for a 50 minute flight to ATL again.

Go Steelers! US Air made it easy for Pittsburgh travelers to leave them after WN's arrival. They removed PIT's status as a hub (it struck me as childish, spiteful, retaliatory and personal) because the airport had the gall to sell a couple of gates to WN -- and if you look, WN's PIT service is still relatively tiny!

I recently flew to CLT for work, which meant either a 1-hr flight on US or 5-6 hours with any other carrier. I paid $500 for the ticket, then on the flight they wanted to charge me for water!!??!!?? I've always been disgruntled with DL, but at least they give you water! I have never flown US since. (No, I don't care that they restored beverage service - the fact they were willing deny a cup of water on board to $1300 walk-up passengers means the management's completely anti-pax).

toomanybooks

True.

Let's not forget that frequent flyers sometime take more expensive trips on specific airlines than they could on others, in order to inflate their mileage accounts for their personal benefit.

I especially like your earlier point that managers point to specific numbers in their favor, without taking into account "softer" numbers the other way that are hard or impossible to measure.

Really good managers are rare. As Warren Buffett once astutely said, "There are more banks than bankers."

Daze

A great post by judolphin.

Looking at the last year or so, with all the issues covered in this thread,
I believe it's possible to visualize the day in the not so distant future when ALL non-elite domestic flyers will prefer to fly WN if they happen to be lucky enough to be in one of the 68 cities WN serves.

Taking it to the next level, I think it's time for one of the legacies or even a foreign airline to start thinking about adding WN as their domestic partner. If that were to happen it would be all but over for a couple of the legacies.

judolphin

Enemies on one thread, friends on another? Agreed... good managers are much too rare.

Can you imagine one of the legacies literally handing business over to WN?

toomanybooks

I wouldn't use the word "enemy."

When you're right, you're right, and when you're wrong, you're wrong.

SDCA

My guess from your location, PNS, is that you are from Pensacola, FL. If so, just an FYI. WN will start service out of PNS starting this May 2010. And regarding vacation overseas, watch for some announcement later this year with service to Mexico, Canada, Puerto Rico, or the Caribbean destinations. And no, they are NOT through codeshares. Hope you have family or want to vacation in some of those destinations.

audio-nut

Right, but they use "expensive" carts to get the beverages on and off the aircraft. Don't they?

MilesMonster

I'm referring to the carts used by most airlines for the beverage service. WN dispatches the FA's to take drink orders on a form with a seat diagram. The drinks are delivered on a tray carried by FA's. It's a much faster process than the pushing a cart down the aisle for the beverage service. Also, the aisle on a WN flight is never blocked by the beverage cart. I've been on 90 minute flights on other carriers where the FA's don't make it fully through the cabin with the beverage service. On my regular 60 minute WN flight, the FA's have all passengers served within 30 minutes.

As for getting the drinks/food/supplies onto the plane, I believe the delivery trucks used by most (if not all) the airlines have the cargo "box" of the truck mounted to the chassis with a hydraulic scissors lift so it can be raised level with the aircraft door at the galley. I'd have no idea if any airline uses carts to transfer items from the truck to the aircraft. I do know that WN owns their own trucks for restocking planes, whereas many airlines use a vendor (i.e. Gate Gourmet).

My original point is that WN applies a "lean" approach by not wasting the time and effort of restocking a beverage cart for every flight. In my line of work, that's the equivalent of moving every component from one container to another before assembling it to the final product. WN figured out a way to eliminate the excess material handling.

While I haven't flown WN long enough to know if they have ever used a beverage cart (at least not since 2007), they don't have to pay the initial expense to purchase the cart (probably two carts for a 737) and any maintenance expenses to repair them over time in addition to the constant added labor to use the carts. "Small" expenses like these add up very quickly for any airline.