escapefromphl

Considering flying SAA business class in a few months I saw this recent review https://travelupdate.boardingarea.co...ss-class-a340/. I have previously been impressed with SAA's wines but I did a quick check on these and they seem a definite downgrade from what they were serving a few years ago. The prices range for $4-$10 retail, so SAA probably pays half that. I'm not knocking the wines they are probably drinkable and represent good value, I was just hoping they still served some of the "good stuff", it seems sadly not.

evanb

A South African wine priced between $4 and $10 is pretty decent. In fact $10 would be considered to be on the expensive side. SAA's wines are selected through a competition and then staggered throughout the year. See this article for some details on the process:

https://news.wine.co.za/news.aspx?NEWSID=30977

Ditto

Indeed, you can find excellent wines for R70-R100.

dodgeflyer

Leopard’s Leap retails in the UK for £5.25. Of that, £3 are taxes, 0.5 is packaging and trans and ca. £1 is retailers margin.

That leaves about 75p for the seller so about 12-15 rand. I think that’s pretty poor for business.

Cheetah_SA

dodgeflyer

Not sure Leopards Leap is anyone’s prestigious project unlike Delaire and Tokara. My point was more that a 12-15 rand per bottle is not a good choice for business class - clearly SA is saving on money there which is a shame given the quality you get for ca 5-10x that price.

Cheetah_SA

No Leopard's Leap isn't terribly prestigious, nor did I suggest it was. (The adjacent La Motte, in the same family, is the trophy estate.) But it does benefit from the Ruperts' deep pockets, which was my point.

I was merely responding to your financial analysis, and agreeing that it's "pretty poor for business". I was not defending the quality of the current wines on SA about which I make no judgement. Nor was my assertion of loss-making on wines limited to the swanky estates. The punishing economics of wine-waking in ZA afflicts all producers.

Ditto

But you don't buy it for this price, so I'm not sure I understand the relevance between how much is left for the winery when exporting the wine to the UK is and how much SAA is saving or not?

dodgeflyer

Fair enough. Wasn’t immediately clear but we agree. Whilst location is punishing the much lower cost of production and land does go a long way to make up for it. And all cheap estate now bottle in the region of sale, much improving transportation economics.

Because the margin the producer is willing to take is indicative of the quality of the phone. Now of course, there’s an element of marketing (ie a Ch. Petrus doesn’t of course have £400 worth of labour going into it) that determines the price, but at 12-15 rand (ie price paid to the estate) you start sacrifice on maturation, quality and care.

SAA of course doesn’t pay 12-15 rand but I imagine the price the producer gets isn’t far off. So it does matter what I pay retail. For instance there’s a sweet spot for any wine purchase where you get quality etc, decent price and taxes. In UK this is around £10. In SA this is probably half that.

evanb

Yes, but none of these wines on the SAA wine list are R12 to R15 per bottle. ...., I'm not sure there is a bottle of wine in SA for that. You're now banging on a drum that is your ego. Leopard's Leap is R65 per bottle in a supermarket. You're not going to get Delaire and Tokara on any airline because they boutique wines that don't produce enough quantity to market to airlines, hence they don't enter the competition.

dodgeflyer

Please re-read my messages as the reference to either of those was simply a reference to a pride projects. I did not say they should be served.

How am I going about my ego? I really wonder. If it is because I think an airline should serve something a bit better than an R65 bottle when my tickets cost around £3-4K, then yes I have a big ego apparently. It is a bad wine on any measure, and this isn’t a reflection of price. SA produce lots of high quality wine for not much more.

I simply said, that in the UK, a bottle of Leopard’s Leap (LL) wine retails for 5.25. It is very easy to break down the value of this. Of this, 12-15 rand is what is being paid to the retailer. In other words, LL, is willing to accept 12-15 rand per bottle, and given I doubt they sell for a loss, this represents their production costs. Of course Sainsbury’s who retails gets bulk discount but it doesn’t detract from the wine. A wine that retails for 6.25 would represent roughly the equivalent of rand 30-40 per bottle, ie close to 3x the price to the producer.

evanb

I did read your messages. I don't dispute that they're pride projects. That's the case with most non-mass producers in any country. Your ego is boosted by your expectations of wine on board business class. SAA wine is selected through an open an competitive process (I don't think you read my earlier posts regarding that) from wineries that chose to enter. Yes, South Africa produces a lot of quality wine, and this might not be to your liking, but it's not a bad producer per se. Better wine might not be entered and likely isn't available in the quantities and supply chain required. Many nicer South African wines are simply not available through mass distribution channels which would be required for airlines.

I also doubt your understanding of the wine supply chain. I don't know what it costs or sells for in the UK and why (it seems ludicrous that they would sell it for that). In South Africa is costs R65 at Pick 'n Pay (the biggest supermarket chain). Of that R8.47 is VAT, R2.93 is excise. The idea that the manufacturer is getting only R15, when the net-of-tax price is R53.59 is why I think you're entirely off base with your R15 number.

Again, your expectations of on board wine of just far off. Just for example, last month I flew BA business class and had a South African red (BA is one of the few other airlines which consistently serve SA wine), Rhebokskloof Flat Rock ... guess what is costs at Pick 'n Pay? R65!

Ditto

Most of the wines I buy here are priced at ~ R70, most of them are ranging between very good to excellent, the fact that a specific wine might retail in the UK in a way that leaves not much to the winery means absolutely nothing, Excise rates on wine in the UK are amongst the highest in the EU and probably in the world and the 20% VAT doesn't help, the winery might have their reasons for still wanting to sell their wine in the UK for such a little profit, but what %age of their wines are exported to the UK?

evanb

Indeed, from their website, under the heading "Global Vision" is the following: "Following its initial focus on exports to the United Kingdom, Leopard’s Leap has spread its wings to more than 40 countries world-wide, with new channels being explored continuously. As a global brand, with a dedicated marketing team in Asia and the EU and distributors across Asia, Europe, North America and Africa, Leopard’s Leap consistently reinforces its drive in exposing consumers all over the world to the enjoyment of elegant, truly versatile South African wines. The management, marketing and production teams consistently endeavour to see the Leopard’s Leap brand proudly taking its place on more and more retailer shelves and restaurant tables across the globe."

escapefromphl

Here are the wine lists from my Jan and Feb flights on SAA, all on the A330-300. All the wines I tasted were decent.