Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Global Airline Alliances > SkyTeam
Reload this Page >

AF-KL swapping LON slots

AF-KL swapping LON slots

Reply

Old Jan 23, 08, 12:16 pm
  #1  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Programs: statusless these days
Posts: 19,234
AF-KL swapping LON slots

It's well know by now that AF and KL are reducing service from CDG and AMS to LHR and lending the slots to DL and NW so there 2 airlines can launch service to LHR once U.S.-E.U. open skies takes place.

The other news (that I had forgotten) is that AF-KL is ramping up service to LCY by buying VLM of Belgium which now results in AF-Kl owning more than half of the LCY slots - a small airport close to the workplace/destination for many of the most commercially-important and valuable travellers in the U.K. So while AF-KL may be decreasing traffic to LHR, it may just be diverting all the important front cabin pax to LCY instead.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...h-vlm-buy.html
YVR Cockroach is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 23, 08, 1:26 pm
  #2  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 69,053
This has to be an incredibly profitable move for AF/KL to make. Getting the premium traffic to/from the continent via the slots at LCY is immensely valuable. And rumor on the street is that the LHR slots were assigned with a profit-sharing arrangement, so they can profit from the ops of DL/NW as well. Plus they don't have to inconvenience their corporate customers with LHR when LCY is so much easier and closer to where the pax want to be anyways.

Everyone comes out a winner.
sbm12 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 23, 08, 1:46 pm
  #3  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: BRU
Programs: A3/Gold, BA/Bronze + other less precious metals
Posts: 2,632
Very shrewd move indeed. For as long as BA doesn't target the premium traffic at LCY, AFKL would be happy to do it themselves. BTW, AF (well, CityJet for AF) now also flies a host of domestic UK routes out of LCY. Plus, with the nonstop AF 777-operated LHR-LAX starting in April, I think AF is cautiously but seriously positioning itself as a major player in the UK market.
nomad1974 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 23, 08, 5:13 pm
  #4  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 15,789
Originally Posted by nomad1974 View Post
Very shrewd move indeed. For as long as BA doesn't target the premium traffic at LCY, AFKL would be happy to do it themselves. BTW, AF (well, CityJet for AF) now also flies a host of domestic UK routes out of LCY. Plus, with the nonstop AF 777-operated LHR-LAX starting in April, I think AF is cautiously but seriously positioning itself as a major player in the UK market.
AF/KL and BA are in a different situation at LCY: for BA, it will necessarily be almost exclusively point-to-point traffic, whereas AF/KL can get LON-originating connecting traffic.
That said, BA announced last December that it will start a four-daily rotation LCY-AMS from May and a daily rotation LCY-NCE from April (all op. CJ), competing head to head with KL and AF (op WX) on these routes. As to convenience of LCY for premium traffic, it depends. A lot of business traffic is headed towards West London, for whom LHR is more convenient. LCY is unbeatable for the City and Central London, though.
NickB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 23, 08, 6:47 pm
  #5  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Soon to be LEGT
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by nomad1974 View Post
AF (well, CityJet for AF) now also flies a host of domestic UK routes out of LCY.
Plus there's the VLM service to MAN. If only they could also add a couple of LBA flights...
graraps is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 23, 08, 7:05 pm
  #6  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Soon to be LEGT
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by NickB View Post
AF/KL and BA are in a different situation at LCY: for BA, it will necessarily be almost exclusively point-to-point traffic.
That's BA's choice. If you go to the BA website and say you want to fly LCY-CCS, for example, it will come back to you saying that BA don't fly to CCS. Fine, let's try Sevilla...No dice, either. They have a joint venture with IB on LHR-Spain flights; what's stopping them adding the LCY ones and/or slapping their code on some key Iberia services?

Let's keep it simple; we just want to go to BUD, oneworld's only convenient hub for intra-Europe connections, and virtually the only place with direct flights to underserved places such as most secondary cities of Romania and KIV. No flights. Nada.


BA have chosen to use LCY only for p2p flights and exclude partner connections. Sure, you'd never have them flying LCY-Japan, but they could easily join these flights up with their European alliance partners and they haven't gone for that...
graraps is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 08, 2:00 am
  #7  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: BRU
Programs: A3/Gold, BA/Bronze + other less precious metals
Posts: 2,632
Originally Posted by NickB View Post
AF/KL and BA are in a different situation at LCY: for BA, it will necessarily be almost exclusively point-to-point traffic, whereas AF/KL can get LON-originating connecting traffic.
Well I'm not so sure about that. Out of the 10 non-stop destinations AF (CityJet) currently flies out of LCY, only one could be said to have any real connecting potential (CDG) and I'd say that even then, AF would have a lot of point-to-point traffic. As for AMS, it is not even served by CityJet currently, though it would be added to the mix with VLM. Still, CityJet and VLM combined would offer 17 non-stop destinations out of LCY, OTHER than CDG and AMS.

BTW, I also just noticed that CityJet and VLM are "perfect" merger partners, since they do not compete on a single route!
nomad1974 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 08, 2:18 am
  #8  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Soon to be LEGT
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by nomad1974 View Post

BTW, I also just noticed that CityJet and VLM are "perfect" merger partners, since they do not compete on a single route!
It's not too long ago that the WX expansion took place at LCY, so AF might have had some "insider information" that helped with the route planning
graraps is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 08, 3:18 am
  #9  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: BRU
Programs: A3/Gold, BA/Bronze + other less precious metals
Posts: 2,632
Originally Posted by graraps View Post
It's not too long ago that the WX expansion took place at LCY, so AF might have had some "insider information" that helped with the route planning
You just might be right
nomad1974 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 08, 8:17 am
  #10  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Programs: UA:1K MM, AF:FB-Gold, QR: PC Platinum, FI: Saga Gold
Posts: 2,602
And wait til the Airbus 318 is certified for LCY.
Braniff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 25, 08, 5:01 pm
  #11  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 15,789
Originally Posted by nomad1974 View Post
Well I'm not so sure about that. Out of the 10 non-stop destinations AF (CityJet) currently flies out of LCY, only one could be said to have any real connecting potential (CDG) and I'd say that even then, AF would have a lot of point-to-point traffic. As for AMS, it is not even served by CityJet currently, though it would be added to the mix with VLM. Still, CityJet and VLM combined would offer 17 non-stop destinations out of LCY, OTHER than CDG and AMS.

BTW, I also just noticed that CityJet and VLM are "perfect" merger partners, since they do not compete on a single route!
Well, you know AF/KL is not just WX and does include KL , and I suspect that quite a bit of KL's LCY traffic connects to other destinations. LCY-ORY is also very convenient for connection to the French provinces, of which only the major conurbations are CDG-connected (and ORY offers more frequencies to all intra-France destinations than CDG). But, you are right: a lot of traffic with be point-to-point, even to PAR. What I was saying, however, was that AFKL DO have an advantage over BA in ALSO having connecting traffic at LCY which BA cannot have. Convenient though LCY might be, we should not over-exagerate its significance either. On LON-DUB, I am pretty sure that AF/WX traffic figures are dwarfed by EI's LHR-DUB.
The puzzling one is LCY-ZRH. With three airlines serving the route, I would have thought that something would have to give at some point.
NickB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 27, 08, 12:42 am
  #12  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hopefully on a plane...
Posts: 6,580
Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Well, you know AF/KL is not just WX and does include KL , and I suspect that quite a bit of KL's LCY traffic connects to other destinations. LCY-ORY is also very convenient for connection to the French provinces, of which only the major conurbations are CDG-connected (and ORY offers more frequencies to all intra-France destinations than CDG). But, you are right: a lot of traffic with be point-to-point, even to PAR. What I was saying, however, was that AFKL DO have an advantage over BA in ALSO having connecting traffic at LCY which BA cannot have. Convenient though LCY might be, we should not over-exagerate its significance either. On LON-DUB, I am pretty sure that AF/WX traffic figures are dwarfed by EI's LHR-DUB.
The puzzling one is LCY-ZRH. With three airlines serving the route, I would have thought that something would have to give at some point.
Then again the number of BANKERS etc... (city/canary wharf dwellers) doing that route daily is probably large enough for not only the current flights but for additional.

LCY is the epitome of a M-F airport... having been there on Sat it's dead!
WBurcham is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 27, 08, 1:12 am
  #13  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London and Zurich
Programs: AA, BA, Mucci: Sir Roger des Directions Routières, PCR
Posts: 13,609
Originally Posted by WBurcham View Post
LCY is the epitome of a M-F airport... having been there on Sat it's dead!
Indeed, it's closed from 13:00 on Saturday to 11:00 on Sunday.
Roger is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 27, 08, 11:25 pm
  #14  
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: formerly Gold now Diamond, formerly MSY, now LAX, formerly NW, now DL
Programs: Hyatt Plat, Hilton Gold, SPG Gold, Delta Diamond/1MM
Posts: 4,108
Originally Posted by sbm12 View Post
This has to be an incredibly profitable move for AF/KL to make. Getting the premium traffic to/from the continent via the slots at LCY is immensely valuable. And rumor on the street is that the LHR slots were assigned with a profit-sharing arrangement, so they can profit from the ops of DL/NW as well.
So NW and KLM have now had a 10 year joint venture agreement that includes all transatlantic flights regardless of who operates the flight. All costs and revenues are shared between the two airlines. AF & Delta announced a similar arrangement last year. So effectively, they are just reallocating the slots from AMS/CDG-LHR to LHR-US flights and even though they might be operated by NW and DL, both KL/AF are still getting revunue from this.

Of course as DL & NW come closer to a merger and AF/KL & Alitalia, suddenly the 4 airlines will be in control of lots of the TA market.....
NOLAnwGOLD is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 1, 08, 9:51 am
  #15  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Programs: statusless these days
Posts: 19,234
Seems BA is ordering 2 A318s to start LCY-NYC service (with a stop westbound). I wonder if AF-KL will respond.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=785714
YVR Cockroach is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread