JS

Oh come on... how many people are there in Kenya, Romania, Panama and Spain who have enough frequent flyer miles to fly overseas? It's a drop in the bucket compared to people with SkyMiles and other major SkyTeam airline miles. If anything, we will be on their flights occupying otherwise empty seats. ^

Cholula

Again, I have to quote my erudite buddy, jimrpa.
I realize the backpackers on this board are thrilled about the new additions but, PLEASE, let’s get serious here.....
If there are four lamer additions to SkyTeam that could have been added, pls advise.
Wait...I just thought of a few... Air Congo, Xiamen Airways, Nairobi Express and Ulan Bator International.
Sorry.....my bad ...

Dovster

Jim, as recently as two years ago I would have agree with you about El Al being spotty -- at least as far as their service on the ground is concerned. Once they got into the air they were fine.

Indeed, for many years I flew El Al only when I had no choice as I was never certain whether they would suddenly decide the plane wasn't full enough and cancel the flight.

When they realized that privatization was inevitable they began a major turn around and now, under new ownership, they are truly excellent.

Flying out of Israel the only airlines that can compare to El Al are Lufthansa (to Europe) and Continental (to the States). In fact, I would put El Al Coach ahead of both of them. Continental Biz beats El Al's, but El Al offers a F/C to the States which is outstanding.

Jetlanta777

but why are some people so damn critical?

A year ago all we heard was how SkyTeam was too small, not enough quality carriers, blah blah blah...

Now, since then, SkyTeam has added three extremely strong global carriers, CO, NW and KL. People still b*tch. No SE Asia carriers, no African carriers no Latin carriers, not enough quality carriers, blah blah blah.

So now SkyTeam adds four new ASSOCIATE carriers. They make no claim that these additions are going to help foster world peace or anything. In fact, the press release clearly indicates that these are tactical additions that should add improved access in certain regions. Thats all. People still b*tch.

Then people start criticizing Delta for these additions. I think it is plainly clear that Delta wasn't the driving force behind any of these additions. So give it a rest.

By the way, for those who are unfamiliar, Kenya Airways and COPA are two of the most respected and well-run airlines in their respective regions. Both have very strong, strategically-located hubs. Air Europa provides great coverage in the only part of Europe where SkyTeam was weak. Tarom doesn't do a lot but make Alitalia happy. The other three are most welcome, however.

Now, is this the end of the story? Of course not. SkyTeam has been very clear for a long time that it actively wants members in SE Asia and S America. It seems that some FT'ers think that quality carriers in these regions grow on trees. Most of the good ones are already affiliated. The fact is, it ain't that easy!

SE Asia- The only legitimate option here is Malaysia Airlines. Until very recently, this carrier has had incredible internal issues to deal with and had not been focused on alliances. They have stated, however, their intention to join one this year. To be clear, SkyTeam is actively pursuing MH. No need to point out the obvious and say that SkyTeam needs help in SE Asia. EVERYONE knows it and they are working on it.

S America- There are only two options, TAM and Aerolineas Argentinas. TAM is by far the best option. Delta has been pursuing them for years. TAM, however, has strong ties to AA and has been fearful of cutting those ties. (For good reason) Aerolineas is historically a basket case and is in no position at all to enter an alliance. It needs a few years of solid operating performance first.

Unless the FT experts can figure out how to get these stragglers to join SkyTeam, I guess we'll all have to wait until the people who get paid to do it can get it done. In the meantime, you'll have to deal with Associate carriers who add nothing but value.

Now stop complaining!

Oh, and by the way, if Virgin wanted to join an alliance, they'd have done it a long time ago.

Jetlanta777

There is only one alliance that has every region of the U.S. covered. Think about it...

SkyTeam- Very strong in Southeast, Midwest, Florida, East Coast, Mountain West, Texas, West Coast (including Alaska codeshare, which is available on all three U.S. Skyteam carriers)

oneworld- Very weak in the Southeast (Miami does not count). Very weak in the Northwest and Mountain West. Very weak up and down the Eastern Seaboard (except Miami again)

Star- Very weak in the Southern half of the country, expecially the Gulf Region, Texas and the Southwest.

So while we are wishing for a carrier to take us to Sydney, don't forget that only SkyTeam has no significant weaknesses in the largest air market in the world.

The glass is half full sometimes.

fly747first

LOL Reality check, the ST alliance is nothing compared to oneworld or the Star Alliance, that's why people aren't exactly happy. Sure, it's an alliance, but not a good one, and the fact that there are significantly better airline alliances out there make it more obvious. Sorry.

rcs85551

Kenya Airways for example provides sleeper-style seats on their long-haul flights (767 and 777). Their 777 has AVOD in J. Not even the DL 777 beats that product. Now talk about 3rd world airlines...

Miami_Flyer

And COPA, the other "third world" / "lamer" / "unknown" airline provides excellent service in their Clase Ejecutiva, seating is like domestic F, but the planes are new and the food/service are top notch. They basically mimic CO right down to the inflight safety video. Lastly, PTY is a great connecting airport.

Cholula

Some good debate going on in this thread IMO.
The opinion on these new associates seems to boil down to whether or not one’s travel patterns covers the rather obscure route structures of Copa, Tarom, Kenya Airways and Air Europa.
My international travel up till now has pretty much stuck to the major cities of the world who are also served by major airlines. Once I start fine-tuning my international travels maybe I’ll too become a fan of these new folks. But right now I’m not overly impressed.

JRF

I don't care about the Southeast... I want a world wide alliance. The problem with SK**AM is that their members do as they want. AF decides mid stream to black out months at a time, does not allow updates much of the time, and often looks at DL's PM as the enamy. If you have an alliance, it needs to have the same quality standards all the way through. You can not rely on SK**AM to have you treated the same way all the way through.

Carolinian

This move is a real plus for SkyTeam, as it broadens options. Maybe this will encourage Tarom to resume flying OTP-JFK.

I have never flown Tarom, but my wife has on the VIE-OTP run, and she said its service was one of the best she has experienced, putting it ahead of AF's service into Bucharest and way ahead of Alitalia's very poor service into OTP. She also put it way ahead of KLM's intra-Europe service.

I was hoping Malev, which has had a close relationship with NW, would join SkyTeam, but it looks like it is headed for a different alliance. I flew Malev trans-Atlantic a few years ago and found its service superior to DL's trans-Altantic service.

Airlines like Tarom and Malev still give free alcohol and carry enough newspapers for their passengers. It has been a long time since DL did either!

I just wonder if Tarom will do a DL-only summer blackout like AF and KLM!
I'm glad that my SkyTeam fliying is now with NW!

da_guy

They teach you to read/write in Wayne? I always assumed once you get outside the 212/213/415 area codes, everyone was illiterate.

Jetlanta777

Your well-argued point is well-taken. I particularly appreciate the insightful analysis.

According to Airline Business magazine, SkyTeam carried 19.1% of the world's air passenger traffic in the YE June 2004. Star carried 21.9% and oneworld carried 15.4%.

"SkyTeam is the comer, the one to watch, as inter-alliance competition increases," says Jon Ash, managing director with the U.S. consultancy Global Aviation Associates."

The fact is that all three alliances are constantly evolving. In the past year, Star has lost Mexicana and added Adria Airways, Blue1, Croatia Airlines and Swiss. And people complain about Kenya and COPA? And the only addition oneworld has had in years is Malev!

Agreed SkyTeam started out slow, but lets be real. It's members have the largest share of the three largest air markets in the world, U.S. Domestic, Intra-Europe and Trans-Atlantic. It also boasts four of the world's Top 10 airlines in terms of RPK's. Oneworld and Star have two apiece. (Japan Airlines and Southwest are unaffiliated).

Seriously, you can debate subjective things like quality forever. But if getting you from Point A to Point B is what airlines are fundamentaly supposed to do, SkyTeam is a major player.

Jetlanta777

Seriously, you and about 10 other people truly need a worldwide alliance. The vast majority need a strong network in their home region and the ability to get to/from other regions once in a while. You may not like it, but that is how people fly.

You may not care about the Southeast, but it is the #2 travel region in the busiest air travel market in the world. (A close second to the Northeast U.S.) Obviously it is important to some people. In fact, I bet it is very important to a lot of people on this board.

Like I said, quality is always subjective. Some good, some bad for sure. But in the end, if it gets you to Valdosta or Nairobi, it did it's job.

seoulmanjr

I think that adding KQ is **great**. Now there is finally coverage to all over Africa and on the best African airline out there from what I have heard. By adding KQ and Copa, Skyteam has just opened a LOT of travel options to a LOT of places you couldn't get to on them before now. For me, the strength of an alliance is in its coverage of the world and my ability to redeem miles to go see the far flung corners that I can't pay out of pocket to get to. If all you care about is flying over the pond for tours of European capitols or getting to Hawaii once in a while, then why even care what alliance you belong to? They all do that stuff. Recruiting an airline like KQ is a real differentiator in my opinion because it expands global reach.

The only real lack in SkyTeam's network now is in SE Asia / Oceania, which they are apparently working on and hopefully (fingers crossed) they'll get Malaysia to sign on.

^ ^ ^ Great moves, SkyTeam! I'm glad to see them working hard at growing their global network and I think that KQ and Copa are top notch partners to have.

peace,
~Ben~