AF Lounge in Paris not a Skyteam Lounge ?
Apr 21, 2001, 9:19 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: PARIS, France
Programs: Skymiles GOLD, Frq +, Klm GOLD, Miles & More, Priority Club, Marriott Rewards, MilleMerci (Avis FR)
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AF Lounge in Paris not a Skyteam Lounge ?
Tried to enter the AF lounge in CDG with a CRC one-day Pass.
Denied
Reason is: Sorry sir, this lounge is common with other companies (outside Skyteam), so we can not accept CRC passes. More, Delta has requested from us not to accept other pax then Platinum or Biz'
... means Skyteam is at a lower level than the 'ordinary' alies of Air France.
In LAX, tried to use it again.
the answer was: What is this ?
Then she accepted it 'because, anyway, there are few people inside'. She was not really frindly... That was the AF Lounge in the new terminal from which the AF flights leave.
Skyteam is no an alliance....
Denied
Reason is: Sorry sir, this lounge is common with other companies (outside Skyteam), so we can not accept CRC passes. More, Delta has requested from us not to accept other pax then Platinum or Biz'
... means Skyteam is at a lower level than the 'ordinary' alies of Air France.
In LAX, tried to use it again.
the answer was: What is this ?
Then she accepted it 'because, anyway, there are few people inside'. She was not really frindly... That was the AF Lounge in the new terminal from which the AF flights leave.
Skyteam is no an alliance....
Apr 21, 2001, 9:49 am
#2
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
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Well, unless I am mistaken, access to Skyteam lounges through CRC membership has never been a published benefit of Skyteam; it is only granted to International business and FC passengers, or Skyteam Elite Plus passengers with a same day boarding pass.
BTW, Skyteam Elite Plus status does not grant access to CRC for domestic travel in the US, either.
[This message has been edited by JOUY31 (edited 04-21-2001).]
BTW, Skyteam Elite Plus status does not grant access to CRC for domestic travel in the US, either.
[This message has been edited by JOUY31 (edited 04-21-2001).]
Apr 21, 2001, 9:57 am
#3
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
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Oops, duplicate
[This message has been edited by JOUY31 (edited 04-21-2001).]
[This message has been edited by JOUY31 (edited 04-21-2001).]
Apr 21, 2001, 5:06 pm
#4
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,960
This is precisely the kind of situation where an alliance is supposed to benefit elite fliers of member carriers.
What is irritating is that Air France is benefiting tremendously from the SkyTeam alliance while Delta and its elite fliers are treated like second class citizens.
Delta Crown Room Club members are denied access to all Air France lounges at CDG and Platinum Medallions are sometimes denied access, which is a stated benefit. Yes, I know the literature says "when available" which has been defined as "capacity limitations" or some sort of legalese to weasel out of the benefit.
I left Delta for United and, as Premier Exec (GM equivalent) traveling on a UA international economy ticket, was given access to all Red Carpet Clubs at connecting points in the U.S. as well as the Red Carpet lounges in Asia and Europe. In addition, as a Premier Exec, which is Star Alliance Gold similar to SkyTeam Elite Plus, I was given access to all Star Alliance partner lounges in the U.S. and abroad so long as I had a same-day ticket valid for travel on any member. United Red Carpet Club members are also provided access to Star Alliance partner lounges with same-day ticket but restricted to the carrier on which they are traveling.
If Delta is unable to negotiate a reciprocal agreement with its SkyTeam partners concerning lounge access for Crown Room Club members as well as first and second-tier elites (like Star Alliance and Oneworld), they should build more CRCs in Europe. They tout the fact that they are the number one carrier to Europe, yet have one lousy Crown Room Club in Frankfurt. They should begin with CDG, their primary hub outside the U.S.
Furthermore, on all of my Delta departures from CDG, I have never boarded a Delta aircraft through a jetway - always a bus because no gates were available. One would think that Delta would have a little influence in terms of gate assignments because of its alliance with Air France.
United, which does not have an alliance with Air France and flies out of CDG1, has two jetways connecting a single aircraft to two gates! One for first and business class and the second for economy.
I don't blame Air France. They are making money. In its desperate bid to sign up a major European carrier as a partner in SkyTeam, Delta obviously bargained from a position of considerable weakness and that translates, sadly, into acceptance of second class treatment of Delta and its elite members at CDG.
[This message has been edited by FTraveler (edited 04-21-2001).]
[This message has been edited by FTraveler (edited 04-21-2001).]
What is irritating is that Air France is benefiting tremendously from the SkyTeam alliance while Delta and its elite fliers are treated like second class citizens.
Delta Crown Room Club members are denied access to all Air France lounges at CDG and Platinum Medallions are sometimes denied access, which is a stated benefit. Yes, I know the literature says "when available" which has been defined as "capacity limitations" or some sort of legalese to weasel out of the benefit.
I left Delta for United and, as Premier Exec (GM equivalent) traveling on a UA international economy ticket, was given access to all Red Carpet Clubs at connecting points in the U.S. as well as the Red Carpet lounges in Asia and Europe. In addition, as a Premier Exec, which is Star Alliance Gold similar to SkyTeam Elite Plus, I was given access to all Star Alliance partner lounges in the U.S. and abroad so long as I had a same-day ticket valid for travel on any member. United Red Carpet Club members are also provided access to Star Alliance partner lounges with same-day ticket but restricted to the carrier on which they are traveling.
If Delta is unable to negotiate a reciprocal agreement with its SkyTeam partners concerning lounge access for Crown Room Club members as well as first and second-tier elites (like Star Alliance and Oneworld), they should build more CRCs in Europe. They tout the fact that they are the number one carrier to Europe, yet have one lousy Crown Room Club in Frankfurt. They should begin with CDG, their primary hub outside the U.S.
Furthermore, on all of my Delta departures from CDG, I have never boarded a Delta aircraft through a jetway - always a bus because no gates were available. One would think that Delta would have a little influence in terms of gate assignments because of its alliance with Air France.
United, which does not have an alliance with Air France and flies out of CDG1, has two jetways connecting a single aircraft to two gates! One for first and business class and the second for economy.
I don't blame Air France. They are making money. In its desperate bid to sign up a major European carrier as a partner in SkyTeam, Delta obviously bargained from a position of considerable weakness and that translates, sadly, into acceptance of second class treatment of Delta and its elite members at CDG.
[This message has been edited by FTraveler (edited 04-21-2001).]
[This message has been edited by FTraveler (edited 04-21-2001).]
Apr 22, 2001, 4:05 am
#5
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
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I agree that it would an be an added benefit of any alliance and that it is definitely a strong point for UA Red Carpet members. And I would also enjoy using CRCs in the US, for domestic flights, with my AF Frequence Plus Rouge ... But everything is not perfect yet. For instance, I am not sure that AA Admiral's Club members are given access to Oneworld international lounges. And in some cases, international flights exclude flights to Mexico, Canada and Caribbean destinations. Just imagine AF excluding access to lounges for intra-European Union flights ...
Concerning the second-tier elites, my FTL status with LH gives zero access to non LH lounges in Star Alliance. I only have access to LH FTL or Business lounges.
Regarding the problem with the gates in CDG, I also agree that it is quite frustrating and the completion of Terminal 2E (2003) and new satellites for 2E and 2F (2004-2006) will come none too soon.
But I am not really sure that it is a Delta vs AF issue. I have already boarded a Delta plane in CDG2C through a jetway and had numerous AF flights boarded through buses (and most of the time with standard buses, not the mobile lounge type). It seems that whenever you have a 747 at one gate, it is not possible to have a plane at the neighbouring gate. As I will be traveling soon from CDG with United, I am glad to learn that they have jetways, but my last trips through CDG1 have always convinced me that, while CDG 2A through 2D are far from perfect, they are, by far, less stressful than CDG1, and that CDG2F is quite restful.
Lastly, on two connecting LH flights from Graz to Paris, via Frankfurt, I had a bus on landing in Frankfurt which led us to Concourse B; I then had to go through two security checks and one customs check (for a Schengen flight, it should have been zero), take the tunnel to Concourse A, reach the gate, and ... board another bus to the flight to Paris. I am not saying this is usual in Frankfurt, but that it also happens, sometimes.
[This message has been edited by JOUY31 (edited 04-22-2001).]
Concerning the second-tier elites, my FTL status with LH gives zero access to non LH lounges in Star Alliance. I only have access to LH FTL or Business lounges.
Regarding the problem with the gates in CDG, I also agree that it is quite frustrating and the completion of Terminal 2E (2003) and new satellites for 2E and 2F (2004-2006) will come none too soon.
But I am not really sure that it is a Delta vs AF issue. I have already boarded a Delta plane in CDG2C through a jetway and had numerous AF flights boarded through buses (and most of the time with standard buses, not the mobile lounge type). It seems that whenever you have a 747 at one gate, it is not possible to have a plane at the neighbouring gate. As I will be traveling soon from CDG with United, I am glad to learn that they have jetways, but my last trips through CDG1 have always convinced me that, while CDG 2A through 2D are far from perfect, they are, by far, less stressful than CDG1, and that CDG2F is quite restful.
Lastly, on two connecting LH flights from Graz to Paris, via Frankfurt, I had a bus on landing in Frankfurt which led us to Concourse B; I then had to go through two security checks and one customs check (for a Schengen flight, it should have been zero), take the tunnel to Concourse A, reach the gate, and ... board another bus to the flight to Paris. I am not saying this is usual in Frankfurt, but that it also happens, sometimes.
[This message has been edited by JOUY31 (edited 04-22-2001).]
Apr 22, 2001, 1:22 pm
#6
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,960
JOUY31,
Yes, I concur that it's weird that in many cases American carriers do not consider Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean to be international destinations.
As to Admirals Club members having access to Oneworld lounges by club members, I stand corrected. They do not have this access. Perhaps both AA and DL should take a cue from United.
With respect to star alliance elite lounge access, I was discussing lounge access for Star Alliance Gold - a status which UA designates its Premier Executive 1Ks and Premier Executives (comparable to DL GMs).
Under LH's Miles and More program, there are only two true elite levels and your FTL status is considered entry level elite and thus designated Star Silver. Even as an entry level elite you at least have access to Lufthansa lounges, except Senator lounges.
Star Gold members (with the exception of United Gold elites) do have access to all United Red Carpet Clubs in the U.S. when traveling exclusively on UA domestic flights. So, if DL were to adopt a similar program, your AF FP Rouge status would indeed provide you with access to all CRCs in the U.S. when flying strictly domestically.
I agree that CDG1 is one of the most confusing terminals in Europe, and it appears rundown compared to CDG2, however, as long as you know what floor you're supposed to be on, you really cannot get lost. There is no backtracking - just keep going round and round and you will eventually find where you need to go.
With respect to the gate issue, I am definitely not in a position to state that DL is the only airline at CDG that requires buses to access their aircraft. While my personal experiences at CDG are clearly nowhere near as many as yours, I respect your statement that you have taken buses to access AF aircraft. But how many AF flights operate out of CDG as compared to DL? I mean DL has what, 4 - 5 flights a day out of CDG. My experiences with departing CDG on a DL-operated flight left me with the distinct impression that jetways were for disembarkation purposes only.
BTW, sorry for the rant, but even my french friends who are loyal DL elites have experienced nothing but demoralization and frustration with DL and its relationship with AF.
Yes, I concur that it's weird that in many cases American carriers do not consider Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean to be international destinations.
As to Admirals Club members having access to Oneworld lounges by club members, I stand corrected. They do not have this access. Perhaps both AA and DL should take a cue from United.
With respect to star alliance elite lounge access, I was discussing lounge access for Star Alliance Gold - a status which UA designates its Premier Executive 1Ks and Premier Executives (comparable to DL GMs).
Under LH's Miles and More program, there are only two true elite levels and your FTL status is considered entry level elite and thus designated Star Silver. Even as an entry level elite you at least have access to Lufthansa lounges, except Senator lounges.
Star Gold members (with the exception of United Gold elites) do have access to all United Red Carpet Clubs in the U.S. when traveling exclusively on UA domestic flights. So, if DL were to adopt a similar program, your AF FP Rouge status would indeed provide you with access to all CRCs in the U.S. when flying strictly domestically.
I agree that CDG1 is one of the most confusing terminals in Europe, and it appears rundown compared to CDG2, however, as long as you know what floor you're supposed to be on, you really cannot get lost. There is no backtracking - just keep going round and round and you will eventually find where you need to go.
With respect to the gate issue, I am definitely not in a position to state that DL is the only airline at CDG that requires buses to access their aircraft. While my personal experiences at CDG are clearly nowhere near as many as yours, I respect your statement that you have taken buses to access AF aircraft. But how many AF flights operate out of CDG as compared to DL? I mean DL has what, 4 - 5 flights a day out of CDG. My experiences with departing CDG on a DL-operated flight left me with the distinct impression that jetways were for disembarkation purposes only.
BTW, sorry for the rant, but even my french friends who are loyal DL elites have experienced nothing but demoralization and frustration with DL and its relationship with AF.
Apr 24, 2001, 11:53 am
#7
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
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Ftraveler, thank you for your input and this discussion, which I found quite interesting and enjoyable. And yes, although I like flying AF most of the time, I have had my moments of frustration. I also understand that the mapping of a three-tiered elite FF program such as Skymiles to a two-tiered elite alliance has left Delta GM frustrated, especially when they compare it to the mapping done in Star Alliance.
Apr 26, 2001, 5:35 pm
#9
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
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If I understand correctly, there are only two elite levels in Skyteam, Elite and Elite Plus. So both Delta Silver Medallion and Gold Medallion are assigned Elite status and only Platinum Medallion is assigned Elite Plus status.
In Oneworld, there is not really a problem, as there are three elite levels in the alliance (Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald).
In Star Alliance, the choice has been made, for instance with Air Canada, but also several others, to assign the top two out of three elite status in the individual carrier's frequent flyer programme to the top alliance elite status :
- Air Canada Prestige is assigned Star Alliance Silver status
- both Air Canada Elite and Super Elite are assigned Star Alliance Gold status.
In Oneworld, there is not really a problem, as there are three elite levels in the alliance (Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald).
In Star Alliance, the choice has been made, for instance with Air Canada, but also several others, to assign the top two out of three elite status in the individual carrier's frequent flyer programme to the top alliance elite status :
- Air Canada Prestige is assigned Star Alliance Silver status
- both Air Canada Elite and Super Elite are assigned Star Alliance Gold status.