24 hours in Singapore
Oct 27, 2011, 2:36 pm
#61
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Only business class? If that were not specified, how about Tristan da Cunha. The problem is that it has no airport and can only be reached by ship from Cape Town or Ascension Island or by private yacht.
Oct 27, 2011, 2:54 pm
#62
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Arrive hungry.
Consider making a run for the Malaysian border to get a passport stamp.
Night safari is good; do the walking/self-guided part first and the tram ride later. That way, you'll avoid a lot of the talking and camera-clicking masses that tend to ruin the tram experience.
Botanical gardens are decent, but if it is really hot out, it may not be worth it, since it can be quite exhausting walking around in the heat, humidity, and sunlight.
I don't "get" Little India or the Mustafa Center, but I enjoy the chinatown area and I typically don't like such places.
The best part of Singapore, in my view, is just soaking in the cultural diversity and watching it all go by while sitting at an outside table or in an MRT train.
Consider making a run for the Malaysian border to get a passport stamp.
Night safari is good; do the walking/self-guided part first and the tram ride later. That way, you'll avoid a lot of the talking and camera-clicking masses that tend to ruin the tram experience.
Botanical gardens are decent, but if it is really hot out, it may not be worth it, since it can be quite exhausting walking around in the heat, humidity, and sunlight.
I don't "get" Little India or the Mustafa Center, but I enjoy the chinatown area and I typically don't like such places.
The best part of Singapore, in my view, is just soaking in the cultural diversity and watching it all go by while sitting at an outside table or in an MRT train.
Oct 27, 2011, 2:59 pm
#63
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Oct 27, 2011, 3:11 pm
#64
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Oct 27, 2011, 3:19 pm
#66
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I was making a (facetious) reference to the opinion held by some that Singapore provides a beginners overview to Asia, partly due to the mix of cultures but mainly due to people not having to forgo cherished western comforts.
KUL being more off the beaten track and all that....
KUL being more off the beaten track and all that....
Oct 27, 2011, 4:00 pm
#67
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I was making a (facetious) reference to the opinion held by some that Singapore provides a beginners overview to Asia, partly due to the mix of cultures but mainly due to people not having to forgo cherished western comforts.
KUL being more off the beaten track and all that....
KUL being more off the beaten track and all that....
Oct 27, 2011, 4:13 pm
#68
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That was me being facetious by the way.
Oct 28, 2011, 12:37 pm
#70
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I do understand your point. But you raised the context of justice in Singapore from your standpoint as an American. And the impostion of the death penalty in America is a bit of a lottery - often with very little to do with justice.
May I just raise the following point if I promise I won't pursue it further!
Most Brits - and perhaps many Americans - might be unaware that for example in Florida, having had a "hand picked" jury (if you get my meaning
) that a conclusion of guilt can be arrived at by a simply majority (ie not found guilty "beyond all doubt" as in British Law) and that the same jury will in capital cases vote on whether a death penalty be imposed. Although currently being debated - it is not the judge who decides and that decision again is decided on a simple majority ie 7 out of 12 jurors. So a majority verdict followed by a majority arrived at sentence from a hand-picked jury that has no chance of being commuted by the Governor.
The defendant is often represented by a court appointed lawyer of variable quality and my link below gives some detail of how poor these lawyers can be. The so called appeals procedure involves a politican - governor - arbitrating on whether the sentence be carried out. The politician has often campaigned on being a death penalty supporter and knows he will be unelectable if he commutes any sentences whatsoever.
The condemed person can then languish on death row for decades - often being prepared for death and sometimes being taken and strapped into the instruments of execution - only then to receive a last minute reprieve. Most people would consider that appalling torture. The justice system in the US as you (may) know is not justice driven but process driven.
I only detail this because I think it reasonable to remind - and a genuinely friendly reminder to someone who may even share the same views - that there is no position of strength that any of us can really pronounce from on justice in Singapore! At least it can be described as being very clear .... and Singapore has as a result provided a safe place for it's citizens. Something many of us envy!
Moderator apology in advance. Pith helmet on.
May I just raise the following point if I promise I won't pursue it further!
Most Brits - and perhaps many Americans - might be unaware that for example in Florida, having had a "hand picked" jury (if you get my meaning
) that a conclusion of guilt can be arrived at by a simply majority (ie not found guilty "beyond all doubt" as in British Law) and that the same jury will in capital cases vote on whether a death penalty be imposed. Although currently being debated - it is not the judge who decides and that decision again is decided on a simple majority ie 7 out of 12 jurors. So a majority verdict followed by a majority arrived at sentence from a hand-picked jury that has no chance of being commuted by the Governor.The defendant is often represented by a court appointed lawyer of variable quality and my link below gives some detail of how poor these lawyers can be. The so called appeals procedure involves a politican - governor - arbitrating on whether the sentence be carried out. The politician has often campaigned on being a death penalty supporter and knows he will be unelectable if he commutes any sentences whatsoever.
The condemed person can then languish on death row for decades - often being prepared for death and sometimes being taken and strapped into the instruments of execution - only then to receive a last minute reprieve. Most people would consider that appalling torture. The justice system in the US as you (may) know is not justice driven but process driven.
I only detail this because I think it reasonable to remind - and a genuinely friendly reminder to someone who may even share the same views - that there is no position of strength that any of us can really pronounce from on justice in Singapore! At least it can be described as being very clear .... and Singapore has as a result provided a safe place for it's citizens. Something many of us envy!
Moderator apology in advance. Pith helmet on.
Your post suffers from one basic flaw. You postulate that since I am American, hence I must answer for all the faults of the US system. Well, I do not have to. You do not even know if I agree with US justice system and do not know if I hold any other nationality. I as a human being have the perfect right to criticize and make others aware of what I see as an draconian and barbaric system in Singapore without being tagged with the perceived flaws of the country of my nationality or nationalities.
Whatever the flaws of US justice system are, may I repeat, there is no mandatory death penalty that puts the burden of proof on the defendant. In Singapore you must prove that you are innocent: how perverted is that? How can one bring a record of one's mental state before, during or after the commission of an event? How can one prove that one did not know? Yet, this impossibility is the benchmark of innocence in Singapore. They hang people with the inhuman judgement that "Even though there is nothing to suggest that the defendent is aware that he was carrying drugs, the defendent should have known, and so he is guilty." Singapore death penalty is state sponsored killing of innocent or unaware people: plain and simple.
The care of Human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good Government. – Thomas Jefferson.
Oct 28, 2011, 1:22 pm
#71
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I will ask one question of you which may be food for thought: if 'safety' of citizens justifies any law, why not put all citizens in jail: that will make everyone perfectly safe!
The care of Human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good Government. – Thomas Jefferson.
The care of Human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good Government. – Thomas Jefferson.
I do get it I promise. I just do not think the issues are as beguilingly simple as you seem to believe.
The US currently routinely incarcerates and executes innocent people on the simple basis that most of them are probably or possibly - but not all of them - guilty, and that it is politically popular to continue to do so. The major factor that will decide these people's fate isn't their innocence or guilt but their colour and/or their poverty or affluence. The US also routinely condemns an enormous percentage of it's population to apalling poverty and illness and death through their inability to afford food or healthcare. Presumably Americans are content to accept this situation because they have chosen to do nothing about it.
Singapore doesn't routinely execute people that have had drugs planted on them as you suggest but it has made it clear that it has a zero tolerance towards drug possession. Because of this 99.9% of the population feel they are able to walk the streets safely at night and many of their homes remain unburgled.
If I were forced to judge which of the defects are fairer on society as a whole I'd guess on balance I'd choose the latter.
Last edited by uk1; Oct 28, 2011 at 1:36 pm
Oct 28, 2011, 1:34 pm
#72
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It's certainly changed since the day I haggled with a Police Inspector over the fixed penalty for failing to stop at a STOP sign.
I think I managed to beat him down from $100 to $50
I think I managed to beat him down from $100 to $50
Oct 28, 2011, 1:36 pm
#73
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Oct 29, 2011, 12:33 am
#74
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I do get it I promise. I just do not think the issues are as beguilingly simple as you seem to believe.
Singapore doesn't routinely execute people that have had drugs planted on them as you suggest but it has made it clear that it has a zero tolerance towards drug possession. Because of this 99.9% of the population feel they are able to walk the streets safely at night and many of their homes remain unburgled..
Singapore doesn't routinely execute people that have had drugs planted on them as you suggest but it has made it clear that it has a zero tolerance towards drug possession. Because of this 99.9% of the population feel they are able to walk the streets safely at night and many of their homes remain unburgled..
Oh and by the way, singapore does not permit criticism of the Government. Alan Shadrake (British author) was put behind bars in Singapore after judicial threats and a witch hunt after he chose to criticize Singapore justice system. Now is that part of the 99.9% safety record? Between that and freedom, I choose freedom.
You are more at risk crossing the road, statistically speaking, than being subject to any 'danger' in your definition of imperfect societies.
Oct 29, 2011, 1:02 am
#75
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Let us imagine for a moment that your account of the situation is balanced - which it is not. I'm confining my answer to the original complaint you made about drugs and the death penalty rather than the diversions you made subsequently.
As you will see from my banner I support Repreive so I guess my sentiments on the topic can be presumed. Several times each year I'm asked to stump up cash to support inmates on US death row who are suffering a miscarriage of justice. Recently many of the requests have simply been for funding for inexpensive DNA tests which could prove the innocence of an convicted person awaiting execution and where the justice system wouldn't fund the test. I have been honoured to meet a few of the people recently who have travelled to the UK in order to meet some of us who have funded their defence. This does not indicate a system of which people of conscience should feel proud and that takes any basic effort toprotect it's own innocent people from a death penalty lottery.
Singapore justifies it's system on the basis that it's society benefits from the tough stance it takes. I think their claim does appear to be justified. Drug trafficing and it's resulting lawlessness is almoost eliminated. This approach isn't without a cost as you point out. The downside of this approach is that people are executed for drug trafficing and there is a risk of miscarriages of justice.
America routinely tortures and executes innocent people with no discernible benefit to society as a whole.
I am not stating (and no have I) that either is right. I am however suggesting that one feels "more wrong" than the other to me.
As you will see from my banner I support Repreive so I guess my sentiments on the topic can be presumed. Several times each year I'm asked to stump up cash to support inmates on US death row who are suffering a miscarriage of justice. Recently many of the requests have simply been for funding for inexpensive DNA tests which could prove the innocence of an convicted person awaiting execution and where the justice system wouldn't fund the test. I have been honoured to meet a few of the people recently who have travelled to the UK in order to meet some of us who have funded their defence. This does not indicate a system of which people of conscience should feel proud and that takes any basic effort toprotect it's own innocent people from a death penalty lottery.
Singapore justifies it's system on the basis that it's society benefits from the tough stance it takes. I think their claim does appear to be justified. Drug trafficing and it's resulting lawlessness is almoost eliminated. This approach isn't without a cost as you point out. The downside of this approach is that people are executed for drug trafficing and there is a risk of miscarriages of justice.
America routinely tortures and executes innocent people with no discernible benefit to society as a whole.
I am not stating (and no have I) that either is right. I am however suggesting that one feels "more wrong" than the other to me.