dannysporea

Hi all,

Me and my wife had several cancellations and delays on our return flight to the USA from Romania and, after several flight changes, arrived home with over 20 hours of delay and an overnight stay... Now trying to figure out who to file a claim against using EC261.
The confusion stems from the fact that we booked two round-trip tickets from United using our miles in the MileagePlus program, although all the initial booked flights were Lufthansa. Here are the details of what we originally booked:

IAD - TSR

• LH419 leaving from IAD on 10/3/19 at 6:15 PM and arriving at FRA on 10/4/19 at 8:10 AM - Flight Operated by Deutsche Lufthansa AG
• LH1470 leaving from FRA on 10/4/19 at 9:15 AM and arriving at TSR on 10/4/19 at 12:05 PM - Flight Operated by Lufthansa CityLine GmbH

TSR - IAD

• LH1659 leaving from TSR on 10/15/19 at 2:15 PM and arriving at MUC on 10/15/19 at 2:45 PM - Flight Operated by Adria Airways (I assume this was a wetlease)
• LH414 leaving from MUC on 10/15/19 at 4:25 PM and arriving at IAD on 10/15/19 at 7:30 PM - Flight Operated by Deutsche Lufthansa AG

First 2 segments of the round-trip (IAD - TSR) went without a hitch. About halfway into our vacation, on 10/8, we received an email from United to call them about our return flights... at that point I knew something was amiss and started looking for alternative flights back home.
I called United and they had a single option to get us home because we booked the flights with miles:

• LH1661 leaving from TSR on 10/15/19 at 6:20 PM and arriving at MUC on 10/15/19 at 6:50 PM- Flight Operated by Lufthansa CityLine GmbH
• LH2482 leaving from MUC on 10/15/19 at 7:45 PM and arriving at LHR on 10/15/19 at 8:45 PM - Flight Operated by Lufthansa
• Overnight stay in London
• UA123 leaving from LHR on 10/16/19 at 7:25 AM and arriving at IAD on 10/16/19 at 10:34 AM - Flight Operated by United Airlines

I tried to give them alternatives on Lufthansa through FRA that would take us home without delay, flights that had space available, but they were unable to book as on those flights because the tickets were booked with miles. United tried to call Lufthansa, but no luck to make these changes. I tried to call Lufthansa as well, but they flatly refused to do anything because the flights were booked through United with miles. After 4 hours on the phone, I gave up and took the only option that was offered and asked for hotel in LHR, but United said they could not provide this and ask Lufthansa for a voucher after arrival in LHR.

We got to the airport in TSR on 10/15/19 according to the change above. News comes that LH1661 is delayed for one hour, and we have only one hour to catch our connection in MUC. Lufthansa puts us on the next flight to LHR:

• LH2484 leaving from MUC on 10/15/19 at 9:40 PM and arriving at LHR on 10/15/19 at 10:40 PM - Flight Operated by Lufthansa

More delays announced for LH1661, high risk of missing connection in MUC. Lufthansa changes our flights again and puts us on the United flight the next day from MUC directly to IAD:

• UA107 leaving from MUC on 10/16/19 at 12:20 PM and arriving at IAD on 10/16/19 at 3:30 PM - Flight Operated by United Airlines

Arriving at MUC and going to the Lufthansa service desk to ask for hotel vouchers... telling the agent that our original LH1661 was cancelled and we got re-routed several times and asking for overnight care in MUC. Agent says it wasn't a cancellation but a "schedule change" and cannot provide a room as they are running out of rooms... huh?
After arguing that how come this is not a cancellation since the original flight did not operate, got the room together with round-trip taxi vouchers to the hotel that was 35 km away from the airport, since they were running out of rooms nearby... at least we had a place to sleep.
Next morning getting back to MUC airport to check-in at United... United cannot check us in, apparently Lufthansa added us to UA107 but did not remove us from UA123. After a couple of hours at the United desk and a few calls to Lufthansa and United in the USA, we get our boarding passes for UA107.

In the end, we arrived home at IAD on 10/16/19 at 3:40 PM, with over 20 hours delay from the original booking.
Now the question is, who do we claim compensation from? Is it United, who sold us the tickets and took our miles? Or is it Lufthansa, who gave us the hotel in MUC and kept moving us from flight to flight?

Thanks for your advise and reading my long saga...

nancypants

It’s the operator carrier that is responsible for compensation I believe

however...presumably the domino that fell first was adria going into administration therefore knocking out the Lufthansa operated by Adria sector? Would this count as an extraordinary circumstance?

someone who knows better than me will be along soon to add more

fumje

There are too many details, although understandably it's hard to figure out what is relevant.

From my reading it seems the issue that may trigger EC261 is LH1661 being delayed or cancelled, but I have a hard time figuring out which, and also how you got to MUC to connect to UA107. Why was LH1661 delayed or cancelled?

It would be best if you can summarise which flights were you booked onto the day you turned up at TSR to start your journey to IAD. Then also list which flights you actually took.

Anyway, from what I can tell, the duty of care would go to LH in this case.

dannysporea

I am not sure why the initial LH1659 was cancelled, no reason was given. Probably something related to Adria going bankrupt, but the bankruptcy happened even before my first flight out on 10/4 and got no notification of this until 10/8, did not even know I had an Adria flight other than a small note on the reservation that LH1659 was operated by Adria. I assume this was a wet lease and not a code share as LH1659 kept operating after the bankruptcy and is still operating, it was just not running on 10/15.

As far as the LH1661 delay, it was caused by technical issues with the plane and Lufthansa had to replace the plane with another one.

In summary, we were originally booked on LH1659 / LH414. Changed over the phone to LH1661 / LH2482 / UA123 after the notification of schedule change and these flights were current when I arrived at the airport. First change at the airport was LH1661 / LH2484 / UA123. Final change and actual flights were LH1661 / UA107.

jtkohl

OK, so sounds to me like you're probably only going to be able to claim compensation based on the re-issued ticketed return flights (TSR-MUC-LHR-IAD) due to arrive at IAD at 10:34, and based on your actual arrival time in IAD of 15:40, 5 hours delayed.

fumje

It seems like this should be taken up with LH. It was their 'avoidable' problem with LH1661 that caused all these reroutes, and (the part that matters) ultimately you arriving on UA107 5 hours after your scheduled booking on UA123.

The very first reservation that started with LH1659 doesn't figure into anything, as your change from that to LH1661/LH2484/UA123 would be considered voluntary in this context.

Often1

This is way, way, way too long and being way, way, way overthought.

Forget a claim against JP. OP has a valid one, but it is almost certainly unsecured under local restructuring/bankruptcy law and thus, OP will never see any of it (or a tiny fraction).

But, there is a valid claim against LH as the operating carrier for the reissued ticket. That ticket had OP scheduled to arrive at IAD, his final ticketed destination, at 10:34 on 10/16. As the result of the LH delay for a non-extraordinary circumstance, he arrived at IAD at 15:40. That is 5:34 late and qualifies for EUR 600 per passenger under EC 261/2004 from LH in cash (equivalent). Make the claim to LH, make it simple (2-3 short declarative sentences which focus only on the events surrounding the reissued tickets), and this will likely be paid out in short order.

For what it is worth, LH was correct that you were not due a duty of care from LH. That was occasioned by JP when it changed the schedule. However, good that LH took care of you as a customer service gesture because JP, of course, was belly up at that point and a claim for a hotel would meet the same fate as a claim for the change.

WineCountryUA

As the consensus is that this is an LH issue, will move this to the LH forum for their input.

WineCountryUA
UA coModerator

dannysporea

I am not sure if LH1659 doesn't figure into anything, as it was not a voluntary change to the LH1661 route, but it was the only option at that point. And even if the claim can be made against this one, being a wet lease from JP, the July 2018 ruling (TUI fly and Thomson Airways) still makes LH responsible for it.
I guess I'll make a claim to LH and see how it goes. Does anyone know if there is a time limit they need to answer the claim?

Often1

Why on earth make it more complex than it needs to be? You have a mechanical problem causing a delay on an LH-operated flight rather than what may or may not be a wet lease from a carrier which is insolvent and may therefore torpedo any claim (as a matter of practical effect).

As to timing, LH has as long as you permit. You could sue LH at any point, so it is really up to you. Practically speaking, don't expect to hear from LH on a substantive claim in less than 90 days. Even then, your claim may well be denied and you may go several rounds before you are paid.

fumje

As Often1 is pointing out, if you want to pursue a claim for the LH1659 problems, that is a separate issue. It is complicated to determine any duty of care for it, and I couldn't say if it would be JP or LH with whom you should take that up. Of course, feel free to go for that, and if you do please let us know how it works.

The issues with LH1661 are clearer-cut, and those are the only ones I would bother pursuing.

dannysporea

Not trying to make it more complicated... I didn’t even know I had the option of claiming against LH1661 until you told me, as that wasn’t my first choice of flight Thanks, I’ll try it this way then.

Fabo.sk

With wetlease the onus goes into the carrier whose flight it is. There is a nuanced difference between operating carrier and who the flight is actually operated by. For example, all Lufthansa Cityline flights are still LH flights, even though the planes are not LH as such.

Either way LH would find hard to argue, I think, to prove that the cancellation was unavoidable. It's not like Adria went bust the evening before; they'd have plenty of time to arrange alternative arrangements.

Indeed that should give enough grounds to ask for compensation and this falls squarely at Lufthansas feet one way or another.

dannysporea

So the consensus is that EC261 would apply to either the cancellation of LH1659 or the delay of LH1661, with the latter being a more clear-cut option. I am curious, from a theoretical standpoint, would one be entitled to twice the compensation in this case, one claim for each flight issue?

Often1

No. Delay is measured from the time you were originally scheduled to the time of actual arrival at your final ticketed destination. In this case, you were either scheduled to arrive on 10/15 at 19:30 or 10/16 at 10:30. You arrived at IAD on 10/16 at 15:34. Thus, you either arrived 19:34 late or 5:06 late.

However, EC 261/2004 of EUR 600 kicks in at 4 hours and you are thus entitled to EUR 600 either (but not both) ways. Best to take the simple claim at 5:06 and you get the same amount.