DAY to DEN -- EMB145 Cant Make the Route!
Feb 23, 2018, 12:53 pm
#1
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DAY to DEN -- EMB145 Cant Make the Route!
I used to fly this route quite often when the aircraft was a EMB175 and never had any issues. United has now changed the aircraft to a EMB145. It appears that this aircraft can not make the route if there is a head wind. Today we had to land in Kansas City to refuel because the aircraft is unable to make the route without stopping for gas. This is now happened at least 6 times between my co-workers and I. I feel that if you book a direct flight it should be expected that it will be just that, a direct flight with a stop. Well, appears that is not the case a good amount of the time. United knew before we ever took off that it would require a stop. So my 2 hour flight time turned into over 4 hours because the aircraft is undersized for the route. I will no longer be taking this route due to what I believe is a bad business practice on the part of United. No flight should be listed as direct if it has to stop for fuel with a head wind. None of this is of course disclosed until the morning of the flight.
This happens way too often and has cause myself and my co-workers to miss too many important meetings and functions. Again, will no longer be taking this route and hope this saves some folks some heartburn in the future.
This happens way too often and has cause myself and my co-workers to miss too many important meetings and functions. Again, will no longer be taking this route and hope this saves some folks some heartburn in the future.
Feb 23, 2018, 1:22 pm
#2
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Probably some secondary factors at work here, E145 can nominally make the route.
"Direct" flights can have stops, by industry definition/convention, so your use of direct is somewhat confusing.
All aircraft have to stop for fuel if headwinds are strong enough.
edit: Divert rate for the E145 on KDAY-KDEN is about 2% over the last couple years; higher than I'd expect, but easy to find comparable mainline examples (752 TATL, etc).
"Direct" flights can have stops, by industry definition/convention, so your use of direct is somewhat confusing.
All aircraft have to stop for fuel if headwinds are strong enough.
edit: Divert rate for the E145 on KDAY-KDEN is about 2% over the last couple years; higher than I'd expect, but easy to find comparable mainline examples (752 TATL, etc).
Last edited by mduell; Feb 23, 2018 at 1:44 pm
Feb 23, 2018, 1:35 pm
#3
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The headwinds have been affecting way more than DAY-DEN. My VX A320 flights from NYC(one was EWR, other was JFK)-SFO had to stop in DEN on one trip and STL the next, all within the last several weeks. It's not just a UA problem, but VX did give ETCs for each. Turned out to be around 9 hours of travel time on each leg.
I'm not affiliated with or endorsing this blog in any way, but TPG did a piece on it:
https://thepointsguy.com/2018/02/win...ts-diversions/
I'm not affiliated with or endorsing this blog in any way, but TPG did a piece on it:
https://thepointsguy.com/2018/02/win...ts-diversions/
Feb 23, 2018, 1:42 pm
#4
Join Date: Nov 2014
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Sometimes it goes the other way. Tailwinds were so strong a few weeks ago that Ops delayed the departure of my IAH-SYD flight by 20 minutes to avoid arriving during noise curfew and we still arrived early!
Feb 23, 2018, 1:50 pm
#5
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It is incorrect to say that the aircraft cannot perform the route if there is a headwind. Rather, it cannot perform the route if there is a sufficient headwind. Thanks to mduell for provididing real and accurate data.
This is a common phenomenon worldwide on many carriers. Not just with the -145, but even much larger aircraft.
OP has apparently not considered the likelihood that the larger aircraft can't be justified on the report. Likely PRASM too low. So, the choice becomes abandoning the route or cutting frequencies. OP is certainly free to take any one of the other numerous carriers flying larger aircraft on the route.
This is a common phenomenon worldwide on many carriers. Not just with the -145, but even much larger aircraft.
OP has apparently not considered the likelihood that the larger aircraft can't be justified on the report. Likely PRASM too low. So, the choice becomes abandoning the route or cutting frequencies. OP is certainly free to take any one of the other numerous carriers flying larger aircraft on the route.
Feb 23, 2018, 2:52 pm
#7
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Definitely not just UA. I remember a few years ago wife was coming back somewhere in the west coast to CVG on DL, and they had to stop somewhere enroute as well. I think even it was from SLC (connection there) in a mainline aircraft. If you think that’s bad, we took a diversion on YYZ-ORD IN STL in September to refuel. I remember being utterly annoyed since the weather system that was in the region was there in takeoff, and so they should have been able to plan for a longer route around the storm. They didnt, but for reference, this was also UA.
On a non-weather related note, sorry to hear DAY-DEN has moved to an E45. I’ve flown DEN-CVG on an E45 a couple of times and it’s not pleasant, for sure. Thankfully for us in CVG seems to be almost always on CR7/E75 now on that route, and now rare to see an E45/CR2 practically anywhere UA flies.
On a non-weather related note, sorry to hear DAY-DEN has moved to an E45. I’ve flown DEN-CVG on an E45 a couple of times and it’s not pleasant, for sure. Thankfully for us in CVG seems to be almost always on CR7/E75 now on that route, and now rare to see an E45/CR2 practically anywhere UA flies.
Feb 23, 2018, 3:34 pm
#8
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On a non-weather related note, sorry to hear DAY-DEN has moved to an E45. I’ve flown DEN-CVG on an E45 a couple of times and it’s not pleasant, for sure. Thankfully for us in CVG seems to be almost always on CR7/E75 now on that route, and now rare to see an E45/CR2 practically anywhere UA flies.
Feb 23, 2018, 5:12 pm
#10
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... I will no longer be taking this route due to what I believe is a bad business practice on the part of United. No flight should be listed as direct if it has to stop for fuel with a head wind. None of this is of course disclosed until the morning of the flight.
This happens way too often and has cause myself and my co-workers to miss too many important meetings and functions. Again, will no longer be taking this route and hope this saves some folks some heartburn in the future.
This happens way too often and has cause myself and my co-workers to miss too many important meetings and functions. Again, will no longer be taking this route and hope this saves some folks some heartburn in the future.
Your question to yourself should be:
UA is the only carrier flying a nonstop DAY-DEN. Is that time savings useful to me for most of my travels during the year that I'm willing to have it cancel once in a while when the weather is extreme enough? Or am I so disappointed with the x% diversion rate that I would rather fly with 1 connection (+ extra time) with another carrier all the time to avoid being delayed x% of my trips?
Your bar / tolerance for this is up to your judgment. Answer rationally to yourself and make your choice -- and everyone will respect that.
Feb 23, 2018, 5:43 pm
#12
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I would start with https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/data_an...ine_delay.html
Feb 23, 2018, 5:57 pm
#13
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Totally agree. It happened too on USAirways, when it was still alive, between PHL and SFO or LAX on a mainline aircraft. In the winter, many times it had to refuel somewhere in Kansas If I remember correctly. Due to the headwinds.
Feb 23, 2018, 10:02 pm
#14
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 640
DAY air traffic is rapidly evaporating. WN pulled out last year, and UA is both down gauging and reducing frequency. Even though I am a loyal UA flyer, their offerings on IAD-DAY are HORRIBLE, so I do DCA-DAY instead.
Feb 24, 2018, 12:00 am
#15
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Definitrly unfortunate if one is a DAY-based flyer.