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Collective agreement for the pilots being negotiated

Collective agreement for the pilots being negotiated

Old Jul 18, 22, 4:29 am
  #421  
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Originally Posted by ksu View Post
No, in Norway the employee, with some limited execeptions, including for flexibility, cannot refuse to take vacation. Employers are obliged to ensure that employees take their vacation (the official informative translation uses the British English "holidays" for the Norwegian "ferie").

Section 5. Length of holidays

(1) (Normal annual leave in connection with holidays)
Employers are obliged to ensure that employees have 25 working days' leave in connection with holidays each holiday year. Employees are obliged to take holidays each year, cf. however this section (5), section 7 (3), first paragraph, and section 9 (1) and (2).All days count as working days except Sundays and public holidays. (...)

https://lovdata.no/dokument/NLE/lov/1988-04-29-21
Is there actually a provision that emposes a penalty on the employer if employees don't take their vacation. Not as in the employer blocks the employee from taking vacation, but as in the employee just does not request or take holidays. We have the same basic obligation in Denmark, and actually also here in Japan, but in reality there are no sanctions if employees don't take their vacation. I am curious about how it works in Norway.

I don't recall our company ever getting any warnings, or concerning communications. But maybe everyone in the Norwegian branch were just veyy good at taking their days....
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Old Jul 18, 22, 5:26 am
  #422  
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Originally Posted by CPH-Flyer View Post

The key point seems to be, the pilots wants to strike every two years....
They probably don't want to strike every two years. Thay want to have the possibility to strike every two years. That's somewhat different.
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Old Jul 18, 22, 5:55 am
  #423  
 
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Originally Posted by CPH-Flyer View Post
Is there actually a provision that emposes a penalty on the employer if employees don't take their vacation. Not as in the employer blocks the employee from taking vacation, but as in the employee just does not request or take holidays. We have the same basic obligation in Denmark, and actually also here in Japan, but in reality there are no sanctions if employees don't take their vacation. I am curious about how it works in Norway.

I don't recall our company ever getting any warnings, or concerning communications. But maybe everyone in the Norwegian branch were just veyy good at taking their days....
In every lagre company remaining vacation days are monitored, and HR will follow up. You can maximum transfer 2 weeks vacation, and if your balance is to high you are asked to take it. It would. only takes one complaint to Arbeidstilsynet and they will do a review, and it is so easy to audit whether vacation days have been taken.

So in short, people take their vacation in any company with 10+ employees.
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Old Jul 18, 22, 5:58 am
  #424  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyingMoose View Post
Wow that is insane, I didn't know that. I would be incredibly upset as an employee if I was forced by the state into taking vacation.

Fortunately not the case in most other countries.
While I have to admit I would prefer to having a employee who adjusted his vacation weeks to company needs, I would not like to have an employee who did not take vacation.

Whether you priorities work or have a more balance approach - your overall productivity is better with at least 3 weeks vacation, though I thing 4-6 is probably the sweet spot for most people.
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Old Jul 18, 22, 6:00 am
  #425  
 
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Originally Posted by CPH-Flyer View Post
Is there actually a provision that emposes a penalty on the employer if employees don't take their vacation. Not as in the employer blocks the employee from taking vacation, but as in the employee just does not request or take holidays. We have the same basic obligation in Denmark, and actually also here in Japan, but in reality there are no sanctions if employees don't take their vacation. I am curious about how it works in Norway.

I don't recall our company ever getting any warnings, or concerning communications. But maybe everyone in the Norwegian branch were just veyy good at taking their days....
As someone who went into the year with 49 vacation days (for the current year) I had a chat with my HR about this...

If I understood correctly, the employer is obligated to make you take your holiday, and in Norway, if they don't make you take it off, they technically have to pay out your vacation days (except 10 which can be rolled over, paid out the day you quit).

I do not think Arbeidstilsynet would sanction the employer but I understood that the unions may throw a stink (and again if I understood correctly, it is just a bunch of admin...). I am not unionized (lower level employees in my firm are) but understood they will still cause an issue if they find out employees aren't taking time off/get paid out/work more than scheduled hours + fair overtime (as I am looking to hire an employee who'd have to work a lot more than the 37.5hr week)
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Old Jul 18, 22, 6:05 am
  #426  
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It promises to be an interesting day.

https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/sas-...slaget-er-tabt
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Old Jul 18, 22, 12:33 pm
  #427  
 
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Originally Posted by CPH-Flyer View Post
It promises to be an interesting day.

https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/sas-...slaget-er-tabt
The info box at the end of the page is acutally quite interessting:

DERFOR STREJKER PILOTERNE

Under coronapandemien mtte mange af SAS' fly blive p jorden p grund af rejserestriktioner.

SAS og pilotforeningen indgik en aftale om, at SAS-piloterne kunne blive opsagt, dog med en genansttelsesret i en periode p op til fem r. P den mde slap SAS for at udbetale ln i den periode, hvor flyene holdt stille.

Inden pandemien havde SAS etableret to datterselskaber, SAS Connect og SAS Link, som piloter siden blev ansat hos p andre overenskomster end de oprindelige i SAS Scandinavia.

De tidligere SAS-piloter havde ikke krav p at blive genansat i datterselskaberne.

Pilotforeningen har beskyldt SAS for at underminere overenskomsterne ved at anstte nye piloter p billigere overenskomster i de to datterselskaber og har derfor strejket.
Google Translate:
THAT'S WHY THE PILOTS STRIKE
During the corona pandemic, many of SAS's planes had to stay on the ground due to travel restrictions.

SAS and the pilot association entered into an agreement that the SAS pilots could be dismissed, however with a right to re-employment for a period of up to five years. In this way, SAS escaped paying salaries during the period when the planes were stationary.

Prior to the pandemic, SAS had established two subsidiaries, SAS Connect and SAS Link, with which pilots were later employed on agreements other than the original ones in SAS Scandinavia.

The former SAS pilots were not entitled to be re-employed in the subsidiaries.

The pilots' association has accused SAS of undermining the agreements by hiring new pilots on cheaper agreements in the two subsidiaries and has therefore gone on strike.
So, that is actually something where I can understand why the pilots are mad.... Maybe the agreement wasn't the smartest thing to do in the first place, and probably badly executed, otherwise they wouldn't need to fight over it now. But still, if SAS really sneaked out of their commitment this way, that is really mean and poor management style which deserves some punishment.

But on the other hand, the infobox is incomplete. Since they also strike for more money and benefits. As always in todays news world, everything gets framed to bias the readers opinion instead of putting down just the facts... all of them.
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Old Jul 18, 22, 1:05 pm
  #428  
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Originally Posted by ksu View Post
If someone wants to run a business in Scandinavia, because it's a good market or because one for some reason prefers Scandinavian employees, one has to play by the local rules. This includes honoring legal rights to parental leave. Refusing someone a salary increase for using this right would, at least in Norway, be illegal.
Whether it would be illegal or not in Sweden, at least those professional service employers in Sweden who deliberately give the short stick to/for those employees who use their legal allowances to paid parental leave would sooner be left with disproportionately lower productivity workers who happened to not (yet, if ever) take much paid parental leave and can’t be easily fired. And guess how that shows up: padded bills for the clients who end up paying for the “training/re-training/education” and sloppiness of those face-time-in-the-office workers.

It’s a negative hit to productivity in Sweden and in Denmark when people on paid parental leave don’t come back to stick to their employer and instead shop around to find an employer who doesn’t give them the short stick for using their legal allowances to paid parental leave.

Good employee morale matters for productivity. If SAS employee morale was worse than it already has been, perhaps SAS would have been in even hotter water sooner. Now that SAS employee morale is worse than perhaps ever, should it be any surprise that SAS is losing over $130M per day?

Maybe some party will push SAS into a liquidation bankruptcy in the US instead of this ending up as the management-plotted reorganization under Chapter 11 in the US. Actually, there are ways SAS could game this with an involuntary bankruptcy push in the US that may come from some party beside SAS itself, but I doubt SAS management is clued in yet on what that may mean.
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Old Jul 18, 22, 1:08 pm
  #429  
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Originally Posted by fassy View Post
The info box at the end of the page is acutally quite interessting:



Google Translate:

So, that is actually something where I can understand why the pilots are mad.... Maybe the agreement wasn't the smartest thing to do in the first place, and probably badly executed, otherwise they wouldn't need to fight over it now. But still, if SAS really sneaked out of their commitment this way, that is really mean and poor management style which deserves some punishment.

But on the other hand, the infobox is incomplete. Since they also strike for more money and benefits. As always in todays news world, everything gets framed to bias the readers opinion instead of putting down just the facts... all of them.
Team Anko may be of this kind of opinion: “that wasn’t my deal, there is new management, so deal with the old being replaced by the new with new terms on my terms.”

The pilots union has not been strategic enough. Navet is part of what led to that agreement about which they are complaining. If they had thought from early on that their counterparty was a narcissistic psychopath with no respect for the truth, then perhaps they wouldn’t have ended up having this complaint.

Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 18, 22 at 1:13 pm
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Old Jul 18, 22, 1:22 pm
  #430  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyingMoose View Post
I would be incredibly upset as an employee if I was forced by the state into taking vacation.
I wouldn't.
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Old Jul 18, 22, 1:44 pm
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Originally Posted by FlyingMoose View Post
Wow that is insane, I didn't know that. I would be incredibly upset as an employee if I was forced by the state into taking vacation.

Fortunately not the case in most other countries.
I thought you lived in Sweden?
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Old Jul 18, 22, 1:48 pm
  #432  
 
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An agreement. Finally.

https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2022-...-lander-aftale
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Old Jul 18, 22, 1:51 pm
  #433  
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Originally Posted by vanillabean View Post
I wouldn't.
There are private and public sector employers in the US who do require some employees to take block vacations. Some of these employers learned the hard way that they should require some employees to take block vacations whether the employees in those positions like it or not. Others are yet to learn it the hard way.

How many SAS pilots are on strike currently? 900 or so? If they or their former fellows are only going to end up being along the bottom of the totem pole for rehiring consideration and terms at an SAS subsidiary, then I have to wonder how many of them are or will be hunting for other jobs and won’t be back flying for long (if at all) for SAS when the strike is no longer relevant for whatever reason.

Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 18, 22 at 2:09 pm
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Old Jul 18, 22, 1:55 pm
  #434  
 
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
There are private and public sector employers in the US who do require some employees to take block vacations. Some of these employers learned the hard way that they should require some employees to take block vacations whether the employees in those positions like it or not. Others are yet to learn it the hard way.
2 weeks consecutive leave for traders at least once a year should be standard more or less everywhere. Unless the bank wants to invite trouble.
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Old Jul 18, 22, 1:56 pm
  #435  
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Originally Posted by Fredrik74 View Post
Any details on the terms the pilots are getting to deal with being moved into SAS Connect or whatever?

Could it be that SAS management was facing a financial brink that a US court couldn’t be fast enough to save it from facing? If so, it would speak to an SAS management miscalculation and its reliance upon questionable advice/planning.

Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 18, 22 at 2:02 pm
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