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Collective agreement for the pilots being negotiated

Collective agreement for the pilots being negotiated

Old Jul 13, 2022, 6:32 am
  #361  
 
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Originally Posted by ksu
SK shows themselves to be unreliable during vacation season, ruining peoples vacation. And an arrogant CEO loses his temper in front of TV-cameras and uses stong invectives against the pilots - showing that he hasn't the balance and calmness expected from him. This is combined with the extremely high (for Scandinavia) renumeration he looted from Avianca, after cutting staff and salaries, and the high salary he gets from SAS. You might appreciate his American-style no-nonsense attitude to workplace relations, but it doesn't go down well with the Scandinavian public.

I don't follow Swedish or Danish media that closely, but polls have shown that the sympathy from the Norwegian public goes to the pilots. The pilots' narrative is that they have accepted huge cuts in salary (5% decrease, every one else gets 4,7% increase, flight mechanics demanded 18% increase), worse working conditions (more weekends, more work in summer, less in winter), accepting no right to strike for 6 (or 8) years. Their one demand was the right to remain employed in mainline SAS and keep seniority. They also claim that SAS kept on moving the goal posts whenever they gave concessions in the negotiations. The interesting fact is that this narrative for the main part has not really been contradicted by SAS. As the average Norwegian is a salaried employee himself, and being a member of a union, this resonates well with him.

Newspaper commentators (still important here) clearly side with the pilots. Anko van der Werff is now seen as a huge liability for SAS.
What the media portrays as public opinion and what is really public opinion in Scandinavia I have found to generally be opposites. Especially the indoctrination from state TV or left aligned papers is hilarious. My Swedish circle has nothing good to say about either the pilots or the unions in general that are more and more seen as a toxic nightmare. Perhaps Norwegians are more conservative or in general do not experience the negative effects of unions and poor country management as much as Swedes do but that eventually that is a matter of time.

I see a CEO trying to save a sinking ship that will only keep sinking if he gives into the unions.

Originally Posted by GUWonder
PR disaster or not for one or the other, its flying SAS that comes across as being unreliable; and its SAS that is seen as being a less than ideal place to park the travel money for those people who dont want to see their travel plans scuppered because of SAS flight cancellations.
SAS has been rebooking or refunding passengers, I doubt many people completely had their travel or vacation ruined. Perhaps they got there a day late. The bookings I've seen rebooked all got to their destination the same day, most just a few hours late, some on a better airline and product, one even 2 hours earlier.

Ironically, its this strike that is making some more people consider the likes of Wizzair, Ryanair etc. Thats neither good for SAS employees, nor good for most of its non-governmental shareholders, nor good for those who want back the businessman's airline level of service. Who is it good for?
I agree the strike is good for nobody. People who consider the likes of Wizzair and Ryanair will eventually run into the error of their ways.
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Last edited by FlyingMoose; Jul 14, 2022 at 12:21 am
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 6:34 am
  #362  
 
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Originally Posted by CPH-Flyer
It is not good for anyone.

I see two outcomes

1. The result will be basically what they supposedly was very close to agreeing Saturday, and both sides will not be able to understand why the other side did not accept it then.

2. There will be an agreement and both sides will claim they got most of what they asked for Saturday but could not get then, still some disadvantages remain, but overall both sides will claim to have gotten the better deal.

And we will all scratch our heads and wonder what the strike actually was needed for. A question we will probably never get a true answer to. But hopefully the pain is over soon.
The problem with outcome #2 is that it likely just continues the path SK has been on. The outcome needs to be, either the pilots gave in or SAS bankrupted.
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 7:22 am
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Well aim of negotiations were to cut ca NOK 800m of opex related to pilot pay. Strike costs are now estimated at around NOK1bn, and increasing daily by 100-150m.

Whilst of course there's the long term effect of the pilot pay, putting the value of those at either a cycle at 5 years, or the 10-year non-strike commitment SAS is seeking; ie valuing the savings at either NOK 4bn or NOK 8bn (€400, 800m, respectively) if giving it full value, you have to wonder whether something where you're paying a guaranteed 100% loss of that saving upfront equivalent to 25% or 12.5% (and rising) is worth it?

Starting to be no way of saving face here for SAS...
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 8:47 am
  #364  
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Originally Posted by FlyingMoose
SAS has been rebooking or refunding passengers, I doubt many people completely had their travel or vacation ruined. Perhaps they got there a day late. The bookings I've seen rebooked all got to their destination the same day, most just a few hours late, some on a better airline and product, one even 2 hours earlier.
Most years, if this had happened, we could've easily waited out the strike an extra week (maybe two) in Sweden. Unfortunately, this year, we had too many things going on this week at home that we could not change; if we had missed them, things would've been unpleasant in my household for weeks/months. This uncertainty added a lot of stress and anxiety to my family. TATL availability was already scarce this summer, and the knock-on effects of a week of cancellations (at roughly 1600 seats per day each way) means availability on OAL pretty much has become non-existent for the rest of this week. I feel fortunate that four full-flex Y tickets appeared out of nowhere on UA's website last weekend for us to get out of ARN on the day desired; we left ARN an hour earlier than when we were supposed to, and we arrived in DEN an hour later than originally planned. The one inconvenience was that we had to leave Mrs. Swede's hometown about 12 hours earlier than planned; instead of a night bus, we had to take a train, Arlanda Express, and also pay for a hotel room (which I had booked two weeks ago on the chance that our travel plans needed to change).

Almost all rebooking options proposed by SAS (before I got disconnected) involved an overnight stay somewhere else in Europe before flying back to the US. It wasn't a risk we were willing to take given that even my backup plan involved a VIE-MUC flight that was over an hour late 5 of the 7 previous days (which would've meant missing our TATL flight).

I'm also reading stories on some private FB groups about people stuck in Scandinavia trying to get back to the US who are distraught because they cannot get home in a reasonable amount of time nor can they afford new tickets. I think situations like this is the biggest reason why I buy travel insurance. The amount of money that travel insurance will now reimburse me for finding my own way home has recouped the cost of any and all policies I have ever bought in the past 18 years (and then some).
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Last edited by pseudoswede; Jul 13, 2022 at 9:08 am
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 9:48 am
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Originally Posted by dodgeflyer
Well aim of negotiations were to cut ca NOK 800m of opex related to pilot pay. Strike costs are now estimated at around NOK1bn, and increasing daily by 100-150m.

Whilst of course there's the long term effect of the pilot pay, putting the value of those at either a cycle at 5 years, or the 10-year non-strike commitment SAS is seeking; ie valuing the savings at either NOK 4bn or NOK 8bn (€400, 800m, respectively) if giving it full value, you have to wonder whether something where you're paying a guaranteed 100% loss of that saving upfront equivalent to 25% or 12.5% (and rising) is worth it?

Starting to be no way of saving face here for SAS...
As a corollary, once strike costs equal salary savings for the "foreseeable future", there is no way for SAS to improve its income into the sustainable territory and it will have to be liquidated. However, if it did not try to save on salary costs, it would have to be liquidated regardless.

Hopefully (for me as a SAS customer), pilots are able to count too (unless they are dead set on making sure SAS does not continue as a going concern, out of spite perhaps?)
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 10:55 am
  #366  
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Originally Posted by tr3k
As a corollary, once strike costs equal salary savings for the "foreseeable future", there is no way for SAS to improve its income into the sustainable territory and it will have to be liquidated. However, if it did not try to save on salary costs, it would have to be liquidated regardless.

Hopefully (for me as a SAS customer), pilots are able to count too (unless they are dead set on making sure SAS does not continue as a going concern, out of spite perhaps?)
Does the above factor in the US Chapter 11 bankruptcy scheme aspect that SAS management is counting on working for it?

Most companies get liquidated eventually.
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 11:02 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Does the above factor in the US Chapter 11 bankruptcy scheme aspect that SAS management is counting on working for it?

Most companies get liquidated eventually.
Maybe, but in the Norwegian press there was an article that hinted at problems getting to an agreement with the leasing companies. I'd think that is just a important.
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 11:16 am
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Originally Posted by Fredrik74
Maybe, but in the Norwegian press there was an article that hinted at problems getting to an agreement with the leasing companies. I'd think that is just a important.
That indeed also matters.

The leasing companies dont want to see their payment flows disrupted and reduced due to the airline losing out on customers and a dried up financing capacity to pay them. The leasing companies obviously want to get paid fully and on time. Chapter 11 can get in the way of that, but this kind of stuff has been worked around many times before in the context of that.
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 11:43 am
  #369  
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Originally Posted by FlyingMoose
My Swedish circle has nothing good to say about either the pilots or the unions in general that are more and more seen as a toxic nightmare. Perhaps Norwegians are more conservative or in general do not experience the negative effects of unions and poor country management as much as Swedes do but that eventually that is a matter of time.
.
Perhaps it depends on your circle?
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 11:58 am
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Originally Posted by ksu
Perhaps it depends on your circle?
Maybe he's a businessclass.com member? Those people are against the pilots - at least most of those that post.

Someone even thought I was a pilot. That surely is the only explanation why one doesn't blndly follow SAS management. .
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 11:59 am
  #371  
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Originally Posted by CPH-Flyer
Yeah, I understand that two years is the norm. But going beyond two years is still about creating a longer term framework and stability in my view. In the pilots view it is all about loosing the right to strike. Showing yes, they have a strike culture IMHO.
It's not really a strike culture. To describe the system in Norway: We have a three party model: employers (represented through their association), employees (represented through their unions) and the government (mediating, and regulating). Strike is one tool that might be used. If you cannot strike, then you miss a tool in the negotiations. It is a tool even if you don't use it: you might use it, just as the employers have (and use) their equivalent: lock-out. There are some professions that legally cannot strike (military, police). For those, other professions in the same unions negotiate, and they get the same raise as their brethren. The pilots would not necessarily be in the same situation if they gave up their right to strike.

The three-party model has national negotiations, and a joint goal is stability and equality. Everyone gets more or less the same raise, working conditions are more or less similar etc. Industries (i.e. factories) negotiate first, then other private, then government/ public sector (including education and health care), following the example of the industries and getting more or less the same raise in percent. This usually is a smooth process. There might be a strike to make a point, but the government often stops the strike quickly by introducing enforced arbitration.

The problems come when someone tries to introduce elements from different ways of organizing the workplace: more individualistic, less secure and mot combatitive. That is not necessarily a worse way of organizing the workplace, but it is different, and it is problematic to attempt to use two different models, either in the same company or in a company operating in a local environment using a different model.

Last edited by ksu; Jul 13, 2022 at 1:24 pm
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 1:54 pm
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Originally Posted by Fredrik74
Maybe he's a businessclass.com member? Those people are against the pilots - at least most of those that post.

Someone even thought I was a pilot. That surely is the only explanation why one doesn't blndly follow SAS management. .
I’m a member there, but haven’t put in my two cents there on this topic. Other than online in places, most of the Scandinavians I know to complain about the strike disturbing their plans haven’t pointed the blame at just the pilots. It’s more like “damn SAS and its strikes again”.

You don’t want to know what I get called in various languages, but pilot and unionist would be on the polite side of the spectrum of comments.

The mess with airports is at least as much of concern as the strike, but maybe the balance would shift when it comes time to get back to work after the schools are back in session in the region.

Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 13, 2022 at 2:00 pm
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 4:18 pm
  #373  
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Originally Posted by ksu
It's not really a strike culture. To describe the system in Norway: We have a three party model: employers (represented through their association), employees (represented through their unions) and the government (mediating, and regulating). Strike is one tool that might be used. If you cannot strike, then you miss a tool in the negotiations. It is a tool even if you don't use it: you might use it, just as the employers have (and use) their equivalent: lock-out. There are some professions that legally cannot strike (military, police). For those, other professions in the same unions negotiate, and they get the same raise as their brethren. The pilots would not necessarily be in the same situation if they gave up their right to strike.

The three-party model has national negotiations, and a joint goal is stability and equality. Everyone gets more or less the same raise, working conditions are more or less similar etc. Industries (i.e. factories) negotiate first, then other private, then government/ public sector (including education and health care), following the example of the industries and getting more or less the same raise in percent. This usually is a smooth process. There might be a strike to make a point, but the government often stops the strike quickly by introducing enforced arbitration.

The problems come when someone tries to introduce elements from different ways of organizing the workplace: more individualistic, less secure and mot combatitive. That is not necessarily a worse way of organizing the workplace, but it is different, and it is problematic to attempt to use two different models, either in the same company or in a company operating in a local environment using a different model.
I am Danish, I understand the model. We run with it as well.

What I could associate with was if the pilots said "We don't want this 8 year agreement as we can't see that it can reflect 8 years of macroeconomic risk sufficiently, and does not leave room to adjust for big changes in these conditions. So we need a better or shorter agreement" but I balk at the "We can't have an 8 year agreement, because we loose the right to strike" I understand the fact that any negotiation would open the possibility of a strike, but by focusing not on the ability to adjust conditions, but on the ability to strike there is to me a clear indication of mindset and culture. You might argue that it is semantics, but I think that it is very revealing semantics.
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 4:37 pm
  #374  
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If you want to see SAS management going nuclear it did just happen.

https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/sas-...-mener-ekspert

Pulling this one when they have just restarted negotiations. It is of course the end point of not agreeing. But if management is working with this in mind already, they are also saying we don't actually want to agree to anything but our terms. Cue the option 3 that FlyingMoose added to my two above.
It does say a lot about management intention.....
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Old Jul 13, 2022, 4:55 pm
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Originally Posted by CPH-Flyer
If you want to see SAS management going nuclear it did just happen.

https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/sas-...-mener-ekspert

Pulling this one when they have just restarted negotiations. It is of course the end point of not agreeing. But if management is working with this in mind already, they are also saying we don't actually want to agree to anything but our terms. Cue the option 3 that FlyingMoose added to my two above.
It does say a lot about management intention.....
​​​​​​
Reading this from a Swedish perspective, it doesn't mean anything to me. It uses some terms which must be specific to Danish labour relations, because I can't think of any corresponding Swedish "phenomenon" that explains what a "release from a previous agreement" is and why this would be a nuclear option. Their 3-year collective agreement expired on 31 March so surely they are already in a position where there is no currently valid agreement about salaries and benefits? This is why they could go on strike in the first place.
So could we get a simple explanation what this actually means? Is it something like severing all relations with the specific union and declaring that no agreements will be negotiated with them?
(I've been a local union representative many years ago - not in SAS, though... - and I think I know enough of Swedish employment law to recognise basic terms.)
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