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Collective agreement for the pilots being negotiated

Collective agreement for the pilots being negotiated

Old Jul 5, 2022, 5:39 am
  #271  
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Originally Posted by Tomas E
The same should be true for Sweden. It seems that the attractiveness of US Chapter 11 for SAS is that it gives SAS a bit more time to try to restructure with its physical assets still in place, and that the management and board stays in control to a higher degree than what would be the case if there was a formal restructuring under Swedish law.
Being in charge of a company declared insolvent can be a career killer when done in Sweden. In the US it can be a rainmaking event that delivers a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

i can only hope that MSA messes this up and leaves a bit of egg on the face oF SAS management, their American co-counsel, themselves and managements backers.

Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 5, 2022 at 5:46 am
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 6:02 am
  #272  
 
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I think its time SAS gets liquidated. Their structural problems will not go away, the company culture is toxic, it hasnt had a strategy in decades. Say they restructure- how long before they need to be rescued again? Pull the plug already.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 6:15 am
  #273  
 
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Chapter 11 or not, I dont see much chance of any SAS flight taking off if the mechanics go on strike.

https://www.berlingske.dk/virksomhed...en-til-torsdag
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 11:11 am
  #274  
 
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Does the bankruptcy court, or the creditors have to approve a labor agreement while the company is under chapter 11?
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 12:02 pm
  #275  
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Originally Posted by cpworld
Does the bankruptcy court, or the creditors have to approve a labor agreement while the company is under chapter 11?
This has me wondering if the MSA-side lawyers in Scandinavia even already have a good understanding about how this goes on the labor side in Scandinavia. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are still running up the billable hours doing basic research.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 12:44 pm
  #276  
 
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
This has me wondering if the MSA-side lawyers in Scandinavia even already have a good understanding about how this goes on the labor side in Scandinavia. I wouldnt be surprised if they are still running up the billable hours doing basic research.
This touches on something I was trying to (poorly) communicate in other posts. I wouldn't be surprised if SAS management was heading into this thinking that the bankruptcy proceedings would be able to have some effect on the labour costs. Chapter 11 is such a strange option to choose unless they have such substantial obligations coming due that this was the only way. Without knowing more, what this feels like is that they are trying to end SAS mainline and be able to keep the subsidiaries. It's not about just a labour agreement per se, although they would clearly want to address their biggest expense outside of fuel.

I do suspect they are in for a rude awakening with the US courts, but even in Sweden companies can do 'sneaky' actions. A company I consulted for some years ago managed to get rid of some of their labour costs in Sweden by shutting down their main site in one of the main cities and re-opened it in another main city. They were able to make it so that everyone from the original location had to reapply (with preferential treatment of course) to their existing jobs, but they weren't given any relocation support. Surprisingly, over 80% of the staff went for new jobs elsewhere. I do wonder if SAS is going to try something similar like "SAS International" (like Norwegian did) and place it outside of Scandinavia. I am just musing here of course. But my point here is that even in Sweden where some thing that unions hold ultimate power over everything, there are ways companies can get big changes done.

But what they can get away using the US bankruptcy process will be interesting. They lawyers will make out like bandits in any case.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 12:54 pm
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
I wouldnt be surprised if they are still running up the billable hours doing basic research.
You really dont like lawyers, do you?
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 12:56 pm
  #278  
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I am pretty sure SAS was planning to go into bankruptcy with the primary purpose to be to cut its labor costs and perhaps also even to cut its related historical obligations to employees (and maybe even also retirees). They have a true obsession, like some here, with labor costs in a labor market where employees’ post-tax incomes are much more compressed than is typical outside of Scandinavia.

A company having one or more lower cost units already in operation could allow for some faster shell games to be played by the company. For all the talk about labor inflexibility in Scandinavia, this goes sort of like it goes with those cooperative and rental housing rules in Sweden about renting to others — the players know how to play around the rules and get their way by nook or by crook.

Originally Posted by fassy
You really don’t like lawyers, do you?
On the contrary, but it’s circumstance-specific. Consideration for the way things operate or may operate at the nexus of business, law and public policy doesn’t change based on what I like and don’t like.

I really don’t like seeing people ripped off or otherwise harmed because of the incompetence, ignorance or unfair dealings of others. And that includes activities undertaken by law firms.
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Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 5, 2022 at 1:06 pm
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 1:30 pm
  #279  
 
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
I am pretty sure SAS was planning to go into bankruptcy with the primary purpose to be to cut its labor costs and perhaps also even to cut its related historical obligations to employees (and maybe even also retirees).
I would venture to guess that this is why Anko was chosen to be CEO. While I am upset at the moment with the strike, it was likely the correct decision to try and make SAS profitable in the long run. Just keep my EBG4LIfe active and I will be relatively happy
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 2:15 pm
  #280  
 
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Originally Posted by dark_phoenix
This touches on something I was trying to (poorly) communicate in other posts. I wouldn't be surprised if SAS management was heading into this thinking that the bankruptcy proceedings would be able to have some effect on the labour costs. Chapter 11 is such a strange option to choose unless they have such substantial obligations coming due that this was the only way. Without knowing more, what this feels like is that they are trying to end SAS mainline and be able to keep the subsidiaries.
News from before the strike new SAS company is available to hire crews.

Nytt hemligt SAS-bolag

Det som fr pilotfacket att se rtt r bildandet av ett nytt bolag dr SAS misstnks anstllda piloter frn gamla SAS om konflikten blir verklighet. Bolaget har ftt namnet SAS Crew Services A/S och registrerades som ett SAS-bolag dagen efter att piloterna gick ut med sitt strejkvarsel.

Vi misstnker att SAS kommer att bli oerhrt aggressiv om strejken bryter ut med en konkret plan fr att manvrera ut pilotfacken genom en s kallad frigrande konflikt i Danmark. Det skulle betyda att bde anstllningsfrhllanden och kollektivavtalen med den personal som r i konflikt upphr med ngon veckas varsel. SAS skulle i nsta led kunna erbjuda den uppsagda personalen anstllning via det vi kallar fr brevldefretag med ett kollektivavtal som tecknats med en annan facklig organisation, uppger en pilotklla.
https://www.expressen.se/ekonomi/kon...ekonstruktion/
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 3:19 pm
  #281  
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Originally Posted by livious
I would venture to guess that this is why Anko was chosen to be CEO. While I am upset at the moment with the strike, it was likely the correct decision to try and make SAS profitable in the long run. Just keep my EBG4LIfe active and I will be relatively happy
This kind of situation should inform employees — unionized or not — that when company management are trying to squeeze concessions out of employees with new agreements/terms, those new agreements/terms won’t be honored longer than it’s convenient for the management to do so; and therefore the employees should instead do like company management does for themselves and their greedy backers: go for the gold at the start, give up nothing already agreed to previously, and let the cards fall as they may in the future.

Will Skatteverket go hunting for Anko’s income after he leaves Sweden to financially collect on his giving his backers what they want, perhaps that being SAS delivered on a single tray on the cheap?
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 4:46 pm
  #282  
 
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Will Skatteverket go hunting for Anko’s income after he leaves Sweden to financially collect on his giving his backers what they want, perhaps that being SAS delivered on a single tray on the cheap?
I wasn't really familiar with Anko but googled him...top of the results was a picture that reminded me of Game of Thrones:
https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploa...f-759x500.jpeg
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Old Jul 6, 2022, 1:45 am
  #283  
 
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Will Skatteverket go hunting for Anko’s income after he leaves Sweden to financially collect on his giving his backers what they want, perhaps that being SAS delivered on a single tray on the cheap?
If he just never sets foot in Sweden again there is surprisingly little Skatteverket can and will do. If he's smart he never moved any meaningful assets/capital there in the first place, I assume a CEO of SAS-sized company is smart enough for that.
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Old Jul 6, 2022, 1:49 am
  #284  
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Originally Posted by FlyingMoose
If he just never sets foot in Sweden again there is surprisingly little Skatteverket can and will do. If he's smart he never moved any meaningful assets/capital there in the first place, I assume a CEO of SAS-sized company is smart enough for that.
Perhaps he should check out the tax treaties Sweden has and consider what MLATs and the MLA clauses in those treaties may mean for him.
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Old Jul 6, 2022, 1:00 pm
  #285  
 
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The SAS board should take care of this because they will also suffer in such cases. Nothing I've seen recently suggest they have acted as if they believe they can be targeted by the authorities.
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